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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2

3 CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,
4 Plaintiff,
5 -against-

6 HON. JANET RENO, ATTORNEY GENERAL
of the UNITED STATES,
7
Defendant.
8 99 CIV 10405

9

10 March 29, 2000
10:15 a.m.
11
12 36 West 44th Street
New York, New York
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14
15

16 EXAMINATION BEFORE TRIAL

17 of CARYL LEVENTHAL, the Plaintiff herein, held at the

18 above-noted time and place before Eric M. Fuchsman, a Notary

19 Public of the State of New York, pursuant to Court Order,

20 the Provisions of the FRCP pertaining thereto, and

21 stipulations between counsel.

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

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4 MICHAEL R. BRESSLER, ESQ.
Attorney for Plaintiff
5 36 West 44th Street
New York, New York 10036
6

7

8

9 MARY JO WHITE, ESQ.
United States Attorney
10 Southern District of New York
100 Church Street
11 New York, New York10007

12 BY: ERIC B. FISHER, ESQ., of Counsel

Assistant United States Attorney
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1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED

2 by and between the attorneys for the respective parties

3 hereto that filing, sealing and certification be and the

4 same are hereby waived.

5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that all

6 objections, except as to the form of the question, shall be

7 reserved to the time of the trial.

8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that the

9 within examination may be subscribed and sworn to before any

10 Notary Public with the same force and effect as though

11 subscribed and sworn to before the court.

12 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED that a copy of this

13 transcript shall be furnished without charge to the attorney

14 representing the witness.

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1 C A R Y L L E V E N T H A L, having
2 been first duly sworn by a Notary Public of
3 the State of New York, upon being examined,
4 testified as follows:

5 EXAMINATION BY

6 MR. FISHER:
7 Q. Please state your name for the record.
8 A. Caryl Leventhal.
9 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Leventhal. My name is Eric

10 Fisher, and I'm the attorney representing the defendant in

11 this lawsuit. I'll be asking you a number of questions

12 today. If at any point you don't understand a question as I

13 put it to you, please let me know and I will rephrase it in

14 order to make myself understood. Is that clear?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Please wait until I complete a question before you

17 provide your response, so the court reporter will be able to

18 take everything down. Is that clear as well?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If at any time today you want to take a break for

21 any reason, please just let me know and I will be happy to

22 do so. I would only ask that we not take a break while one

23 of my questions is still pending. Is that clear as well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Have you taken any medication or any other drug

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1 today that might interfere with your memory?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you aware of any other condition that might

4 interfere with your ability to remember the issues about

5 which I'm going to ask you today?
6 A. I have multiple sclerosis.
7 Q. I'll refer to multiple sclerosis as MS. Does the

8 MS affect your memory?

9 A. If I may read this. I'd like it on the record.

10 "I feel okay now but I have multiple sclerosis. I get

11 fatigued very easily. When I become fatigued I suffer

12 mental confusion. I could easily misunderstand the

13 questions and give the wrong answers."

14 Q. Mrs. Leventhal, when you become fatigued, is that

15 a condition you become aware of?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Is that to say that you become fatigued and may

18 suffer some memory problems that you are not aware that you

19 are suffering?
20 A. That's possible.
21 Q. I would ask that today to the extent that you are

22 aware of any feelings of fatigue or you feel any sense of

23 confusion or any difficulties with your memory, that you

24 please alert me so that we have your testimony today in a

25 manner that's accurate and reliable. Is that clear?

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1 A. I understand.
2 MR. BRESSLER: We have talked, Caryl and I

3 discussed, I believe she has informed me that, and this is

4 an estimate, after two hours she may have suffered and not

5 give accurate answers and so forth. Just keep that in

6 mind.

7 MR. FISHER: We certainly can take a break every

8 two hours and more often than that if you like for comfort,

9 for well-being, or any other reason.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 Q. Could you please state your home address for the

12 record?
13 A. 197 7th Avenue, apartment 3L, Brooklyn, New York
14 11215.
15 Q. How long have you resided at that address?
16 A. Eighteen years.
17 Q. Who else lives with you at that address?
18 A. My husband.
19 Q. What is your husband's name?
20 A. Michael Leventhal.
21 Q. Does anyone else live with you at that address?
22 A. No.
23 Q. During the past 18 years has anyone else lived

24 with you at that address?

25 A. My stepson.

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1 Q. Did your stepson live with you during the period
2 from 1995 through 1997?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When did your stepson stop living at your home?
5 A. Approximately 1993, '94.
6 Q. When is your stepson's name?
7 A. David Leventhal.
8 Q. Mrs. Leventhal, when did you first apply for a

9 position with Immigration and Naturalization Service?

10 A. I believe it was November of 1984. Excuse me. I

11 believe it was November of 1994.

12 Q. Do you recall what position you applied for at

13 that time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What position was that?
16 A. Supervisory applications clerk.
17 Q. Had you learned of an opening at the INS?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How did you learn of the opening?
20 A. I believe I saw the opening in a publication

21 called The Federal Times.
22 Q. What interested you about the position?
23 A. I like the idea of being in an organization that

24 was large with security.

25 Q. With security, you mean economic security?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember anything about the description of

3 the position of supervisory applications clerk as it was

4 advertised in The Federal Times?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did the ad say?
7 A. Basically to supervise clerical workers.
8 Q. Do you remember anything else about the ad?
9 A. That was basically it.
10 Q. At the time that you saw the ad were you employed?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. Where were you employed?
13 A. Reiss Reports.
14 Q. What was your position at Reiss Reports?
15 A. I was a telephone surveyor.
16 Q. In total how long were you employed at Reiss

17 Reports?
18 A. I started there in, I believe it was September of
19 1991.
20 Q. Do you remember when you concluded your employment

21 there?

22 A. Yes. I concluded my employment at Reiss Reports

23 in June of 1995.

24 Q. During that entire period were you employed as a

25 telephone surveyor?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What were your responsibilities as a telephone

3 surveyor?

4 A. Contacting managers of office buildings, apartment

5 buildings nationwide, asking questions concerning their

6 properties.

7 Q. What information were you interested in getting

8 from these building managers?

9 A. Basically, depending upon the project in a

10 particular geographic area, the dimensions of the properties

11 that they managed, as well as various aspects of the

12 properties.
13 Q. What sort of business is Reiss Reports in?
14 A. Real estate market research.
15 Q. Did you supervise any employees at Reiss Reports?
16 A. In an informal way, one or two.
17 Q. When you say "in an informal way," could you

18 please be more specific?

19 A. When a new person would start I was asked to

20 assist in training the individual for the position.

21 Q. Beyond the training or assisting in the training

22 of new employees, did you have continuing supervisory

23 responsibility for any employees?
24 A. Not actually.
25 Q. At Reiss Reports, who was your immediate

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1 supervisor?
2 A. Carey Shapiro.
3 Q. Is that Mr. or Miss Shapiro?
4 A. Ms.
5 Q. Was Ms. Shapiro your supervisor during that entire

6 period?

7 A. Yes, she was. Excuse me. In the very beginning

8 there was another individual who left while I was still

9 there. Her name was Lisa Pemberthy (phonetic).

10 Q. So Miss Pemberthy supervised you for some period

11 at the very beginning of your employment at Reiss Reports?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As supervisor did Ms. Shapiro review your work?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you evaluated as an employee at Reiss

16 Reports?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How often were you evaluated?
19 A. I believe it was on a yearly basis.
20 Q. Were these written or oral evaluations?
21 A. Both.
22 Q. Is it fair to say that you were evaluated on at

23 least four occasions while employed at Reiss Reports?
24 A. Yes, that's true.
25 Q. Please tell me the substance of your employment

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1 evaluations at Reiss Reports?
2 A. I received very good evaluations.
3 Q. When you applied for the position of supervisory

4 applications clerk, did you submit a written application?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall when you submitted that application?
7 A. I believe I submitted the application to INS in

8 the fall of 1994.

9 Q. At that time were you looking into any other

10 employment opportunities aside from the INS?
11 A. Not actually. '
12 Q. When you say "not actually," were you looking but

13 not seriously? Is that what you mean by that answer?
14 A. I was looking into federal employment.
15 Q. Were you considering then other federal jobs?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were there other openings that you became aware of

18 while looking for a job at this time?
19 A. There may have been.
20 Q. Do you remember any openings that you became aware

21 of?
22 A. Not specifically.
23 Q. Did you apply for any other positions?
24 A. I may have.
25 Q. Is there some record that would refresh your

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1 recollection as to whether or not you applied for other

2 positions during this time?
3 A. It's been a long time.
4 Q. If you had applied would you have retained a

5 record of that?
6 MR. BRESSLER: I'll object to the form.
7 You can answer.
8 A. The only thing that I can remember as far as

9 having records would be for my application for INS.

10 Q. After you submitted your application, what's the

11 next thing that you heard about your application for

12 employment with the INS?
13 A. I received a phone call to come for an interview.
14 Q. Do you remember who the phone call was from?
15 A. It may have been -- I can't remember the woman's

16 name, but it was at 26 Federal Plaza.
17 Q. Do you recall some idea now of who it was?
18 A. The person that I remember is a Robert Brouillet,

19 B R O U I L L E T.

20 Q. Was this first call from Mr. Brouillet or was this

21 first call from someone else?
22 A. One of his assistants.
23 Q. The purpose of the call was to schedule an

24 interview?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Aside from setting a date for the interview, did

2 you have any other conversations with this person on the

3 phone?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you in fact schedule an interview?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember when the interview was?
8 A. It may have been March of 19 -- excuse me. It may

9 have been February of 1995.
10 Q. Where was the interview?
11 A. 26 Federal Plaza.
12 Q. Who did you interview with?
13 A. I interviewed with a Rose Chapman and Miss Gee. I

14 don't know her first name.

15 Q. Did they interview you together or did you

16 interview with each of them separately?
17 A. Together.
18 Q. Approximately how long did the interview last?
19 A. To my recollection, 45 minutes to an hour.
20 Q. During the course of that interview did you learn

21 anything further about the position of supervisory

22 applications clerk?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What did you learn?
25 A. They explained the duties.
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1 Q. What did they explain the duties to be?
2 A. Basically supervising a clerical pool.
3 Q. Did they break it down any more specifically than

4 that in describing what those responsibilities would entail?
5 A. Could you define that a little more, please?
6 Q. You had said that they told you the position of

7 supervisory applications clerk required you to supervise the

8 clerical pool. Did they describe for you, for example, what

9 your day day-to-day activities in supervising the clerical

10 pool would be like?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What were the day-to-day activities that they

13 described to you?

14 A. Basically making sure that, of course, the work

15 was done. Also that the paperwork was done for immigrants,

16 applicants coming into this country for a variety of reasons

17 having to do with immigration law status I should say.

18 Q. Did they give you an idea of how many people the

19 supervisory applications clerk supervised?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At that time what was your understanding of how

22 many people the clerk supervised?
23 A. Approximately 20 to 30.
24 Q. Did they give you the idea of the volume of

25 paperwork that these 20 to 30 clerks processed?

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1 A. Not at that time.
2 Q. When did you first get a sense of the volume of

3 paperwork that the 20 to 30 clerks supervised by the

4 supervisory applications clerk processed?
5 MR. FISHER: Strike that.
6 Q. When did you first learn the volume of work that

7 the supervisory applications clerk was responsible for

8 supervising?
9 A. I actually found out when I first started.
10 Q. Before you started did you have any idea as to how

11 much work the supervisory application clerk supervised?
12 A. They didn't really emphasize that.
13 Q. What aspects of the job did they emphasize in

14 describing it to you in the interview?

15 A. The emphasized that I would be working with a

16 variety of people in the clerical pool. They were impressed

17 by the type of work that I was doing at that time,

18 communicating with different people over the telephone.

19 Q. Did they ask you whether you had any prior

20 supervisory experience?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you at that time have any supervisory

23 experience?

24 A. As I had said, I had at that time my current

25 position at Reiss Reports, I had helped in training new

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1 individuals coming on board.

2 Q. Aside from Reiss Reports, even before your

3 employment at Reiss Reports, did you have supervisory

4 experience?

5 A. In the 1980s I owned and operated with Michael

6 Leventhal an executive recruitment firm.
7 Q. What was the name of that firm?
8 A. Intercontinental Data Management.
9 Q. Did you supervise employees as owner and operator

10 of that firm?

11 A. We at times would have people working with us, but

12 essentially it was the two of us.

13 Q. Before you accepted the position as supervi3ory

14 applications clerk, aside from the experience you already

15 mentioned, can you think of any other supervisory experience

16 that you had?

17 A. Could you maybe define the question again? I'm

18 thinking back. I started working when I was 20 years old.

19 I'm 47 now.

20 Q. I realize it covers a very long time period. I'm

21 deliberately not limiting it but asking you to think over

22 your entire working history to identify jobs in which you

23 had supervisory responsibility for other employees.
24 A. Reiss.
25 Q. You already identified Reiss and you identified

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1 Intercontinental Data Management. I'm asking now whether

2 you can think of any other examples?
3 A. That would basically be it.
4 Q. Did you have any questions for Miss Chapman or

5 Miss Gee at the interview?
6 A. Concerning?
7 Q. Concerning the job that you were applying for?
8 A. I asked how many people I would be supervising.

9 The nature of the work.

10 Q. Did they tell you how many people you would be

11 supervising?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did they tell you at that time?
14 A. They said somewhere from 20 to 30.
15 Q. Aside from how many people you would be

16 supervising and the nature of work, did you have any other

17 questions at the interview about the position?

18 A. Basically I wanted to find out where the paperwork

19 was coming from and what the purpose of the paperwork was.

20 Q. What was the answer that you were given at the

21 interview?

22 A. The paperwork was for immigrants, basically, in

23 various -- determining their status.
24 Q. Where was the paperwork coming from?
25 A. From district -- they call them DAO, district

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1 adjudication officers.

2 Q. At that time, at the time of the interview, did

3 you have an understanding of what exactly had to be done

4 with this paperwork once is came from the DAOs?
5 A. At the time of the interview?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I asked basically what the paperwork would entail

8 and they were very confident, they said with your experience

9 on that first interview they were very enthusiastic and they

10 had wanted to make me an interview (sic) on the spot.
11 Q. They wanted to make you an offer on the spot?
12 A. I didn't mean interview. They wanted to make me

13 an offer.
14 Q. Did they make an offer on the spot?
15 A. Basically they did but it wasn't an offer, but

16 they said they had to go through paperwork.

17 Q. Do you know whether they had the authority to make

18 an offer or did they have to get someone's approval?
19 A. They probably had to get someone's approval.
20 Q. How did the interview conclude?
21 A. It concluded on a very upbeat one.
22 Q. What do you mean by that?
23 A. Basically they made it clear that they had wanted

24 me to come on board and I would have to wait for a phone

25 call from personnel.

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1 Q. Aside from your initial application and the

2 interview that you just described, were there any other

3 steps that you had to take in applying for the position of

4 S.A.C.?
5 A. I had to go through a reference check.
6 Q. Who did you list as your references?
7 A. I listed, I believe, it's been a while, I believe

8 I listed Reiss Reports and I also -- excuse me. I also

9 listed Clairol, that was a company I had worked for for a

10 time. I listed Intercontinental Data Management.

11 Q. In listing references did you have to list

12 individuals?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who did you list for Reiss Reports?
15 A. I listed Carey Shapiro.
16 Q. Do you know whether Miss Shapiro was contacted in

17 connection with your hiring?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Who did you list at Clairol?
20 A. Norma Innis.
21 Q. Who can did you list at Intercontinental?
22 A. Michael Leventhal.
23 Q. For how long were you employed by Clairol?
24 A. I was there part-time. I was there from, I

25 believe, it was the spring of 1986 through 1990, early 1991.

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1 Q. When you say "part-time," approximately how many

2 hours did you work each week?
3 A. Twenty hours.
4 Q. Was that roughly your schedule during the entire

5 period that you were employed at Clairol?
6 A. Roughly. Sometimes I would worked extra hours.
7 Q. What was your position at Clairol?
8 A. I was an -- I'm trying to remember the specific

9 title. I was on the telephone. I did customer relations.

10 Q. In that position did you supervise anyone at

11 Clairol?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Who was your immediate supervisor?
14 A. Norma Innis.
15 Q. Did your work at Clairol require any paperwork?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What kind of paperwork?
18 A. Basically filling out forms concerning calls that

19 I had taken from consumers.

20 Q. Backtracking for a moment. Did your work at Reiss

21 Reports require any paperwork?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What kind of paperwork did you have to complete at

24 Reiss Reports?

25 A. I had to fill out -- I had to do overtime sheets.

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1 When people would report to their work station they would

2 sign a time sheet.
3 Q. Any other paperwork at Reiss Reports?
4 A. I had to -- concerning the individual employees or

5 concerning --

6 Q. Paperwork that you had to complete as part of your

7 position at Reiss Reports?

8 A. Again, I had to supervise the flow of work, making

9 sure a certain amount of cases had been processed, and keep

10 track of what type of cases were processed, as well as the

11 number and quality of the work that was done.

12 Q. When you refer to cases at Reiss Reports, what is

13 a case?

14 A. A case would be an individual who is applying for

15 citizenship.

16 Q. I think there is some confusion about the

17 question. I'm asking only about Reiss Reports. I'm not

18 asking about your employment at INS.
19 A. I misunderstood.
20 Q. Let's go back over those questions.
21 MR. FISHER: Let's take a break.
22 Off the record.
23 (Discussion held off the record.)
24 MR. FISHER: Back on the record.
25 Q. Mrs. Leventhal, I'll repeat a question I asked you

ii

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1 earlier. If you want to correct your answer, please go

2 ahead.

3 The question was, what kind of paperwork you had

4 to complete in your position at Reiss Reports.

5 A. Yes. The paperwork that I would have to complete

6 would be to basically monitor the flow of work on a daily

7 and weekly basis.
8 Q. This is the flow of work at Reiss Reports?
9 A. I'm sorry. I'm confused. At Reiss Reports or

10 INS?
11 Q. Reiss Reports.
12 A. I monitored the work that I personally did at

13 Reiss Reports.
14 Q. But you didn't supervise anyone else's paperwork?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. After your interview for the INS position, when

17 was the next time that you were contacted about the

18 position?
19 A. Which interview are you referring to?
20 Q. I'm referring to your interview with Miss Gee and

21 Miss Chapman for the INS position. Is that the only

22 interview that you had for the position?
23 A. That I can recall.
24 Q. Is it possible that you had other interviews?
25 A. There was Miss Gee. There was Miss Chapman.

I

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1 Prior to seeing Miss Gee and Miss Chapman I had to come in

2 and fill out an application and submit it with one of the

3 clericals in, I believe they call it admin, administration,

4 which is personnel.

5 Q. Would that to be an interview or just an

6 opportunity to fill out some forms that you had to fill out?
7 A. To fill out forms.
8 Q. Again, you filled out those forms before your

9 interview with Miss Chapman and Miss Gee?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember how much before?
12 A. A few months, I believe.
13 Q. When you came in to fill out those forms, was that

14 26 Federal Plaza?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember what floor?
17 A. I believe it was the 14th floor.
18 Q. On that visit to 26 Federal Plaza, did you learn

19 anything more about the job of supervisory applications

20 clerk?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you learn anything more about working at INS

23 generally during that visit to 26 Federal Plaza to .fill out

24 forms?

25 A. To my recollection it was basically to fill out

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1 forms.

2 Q. Aside from your interview with Miss Gee and Miss

3 Chapman, were there any other interviews for the position of

4 supervisory applications clerk?

5 A. I believe I had met with an individual. I can't

6 quite remember her name. I think it was a Linda Richman.

7 She showed where the clerical pool was on the 10th floor.

8 Q. Did you meet with Miss Richman before or after

9 your interview, the interview for the position and Miss

10 Chapman and Miss Gee?
11 A. I believe it was after.
12 Q. At the time that you met with Miss Richman had you

13 already been offered the position?
14 A. Not formally.
15 Q. What did you observe when you visited the clerical

16 pool on the 10th floor with Miss Richman?

17 A. I observed basically people sitting at desks doing

18 paperwork. A few typists doing their job.

19 Q. Did you learn at that time exactly how many people

20 the supervisory applications clerk supervised?
21 A. They said approximately 20 to 30.
22 Q. Is there anything else that you observed?
23 A. Pertaining to what specifically?
24 Q. Pertaining to the work in that area?
25 A. I don't quite understand the question.

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1 Q. Let me see if I can make it clearer.
2 A. If you would, please.
3 Q. Did you observe anything about the type of work

4 that the employees that you observed in that section were

5 doing?

6 A. I observed that it was basically filling out

7 forms.

8 Q. Did Miss Richman show you where the supervisory

9 applications clerk was stationed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was there a supervisory applications clerk

12 employed by the INS at that time?
13 A. At that time, no.
14 Q. The position was vacant?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. Where was the supervisory applications clerk

17 positioned?
18 A. on the tenth floor in the back of the room.
19 Q. How close was the supervisory applications clerk

20 to the employees who she supervised?

21 A. That was located on the same floor in the clerical

22 pool itself, just on the very end of the room.

23 Q. Did you ask any questions of Miss Richman about

24 the position of supervisory applications clerk?

25 A. I may have.

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1 Q. Do you remember any questions?
2 A. Not specifically. I may have asked how many

3 applications, how many pieces of work are processed per

4 day. I may have.

5 Q. Do you remember anything that Miss Richman told

6 you about the position of supervisory applications clerk?

7 A. I remember her pointing out individual clerks and

8 commenting on whether they were good workers, poor workers,

9 or average workers.

10 Q. What is your understanding of why she was sharing

11 that information with you?

12 A. I assumed at the time it was to give me an idea of

13 what supervisory applications clerk would be dealing with on

14 a day-to-day basis.

15 Q. Do you recall anything else that she told you

16 about the position of supervisory applications clerk?

17 A. She may have said, I do remember this being said,

18 I don't remember specifically, that the paperwork never

19 ends.
20 Q. Anything else you can remember?
21 A. Not actually. No, I can't.
22 Q. I want to make sure that the chronology is clear.

23 You had your interview with Miss Gee and Miss Chapman; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Then the next communication you had with anyone

2 about the position of supervisory applications clerk was

3 with Linda Richman?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. After your meeting with Linda Richman, when is the

6 next communication that you had with anyone from INS about

7 the position of supervisory applications clerk?

8 A. During the winter of 1995 I had to go for -- I was

9 required to go for, I believe it was a blood test. Also

10 they wanted -- I had gone to admin, the administrative

11 personnel, I think I said this before, to fill out an

12 application and also to provide credit information.

13 Q. Did someone contact you to schedule an appointment

14 to go down to INS to take care of the work you just

15 described?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember who contacted you?
18 A. I don't remember the specific name but it was

19 someone from admin.

20 Q. After you went to INS to fill out the applications

21 and provide the other information they had requested, what

22 is the next communication you had with anyone from INS about

23 the position of supervisory applications clerk?

24 A. I received a phone call from a Robert Brouillet in

25 admin offering me the position of supervisory applications

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1 clerk.
2 Q. Do you remember when that phone call was?
3 A. I believe that was May of 1995.
4 Q. Had you ever spoken to Mr. Brouillet before that

5 phone call?
6 A. No, I had not.
7 Q. Do you remember how Mr. Brouillet identified

8 himself?

9 A. He said he was from INS, that he was an equivalent

10 of a personnel manager, I don't remember the exact title,

11 and they wanted to make me the offer of supervisory

12 applications clerk.

13 Q. Is there anything else that you remember about

14 that telephone conversation with Mr. Brouillet?
15 A. He asked when I could start.
16 Q. What did you tell him?
17 A. I told him that I needed to give notice to my

18 current employer which was Reiss Reports.
19 Q. Did you provide him with a proposed starting date?
20 A. He wanted me to start immediately since there was

21 no supervisory applications clerk there at that time. I

22 told him I needed to -- I felt that Reiss Reports deserved

23 three weeks' notice.

24 Q. Given that information did you propose a specific

25 starting date?

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1 A. I believe that would have been -- I don't have a

2 calendar in front of me.
3 Q. I understand that.
4 A. June 12th, approximately, of 1995.
5 Q. What did Mr. Brouillet say when you proposed that

6 starting date?

7 A. He said report to him in admin and you will be

8 able to start work that day.

9 Q. Did he tell you anything else during the course of

10 that conversation?
11 A. That was basically it.
12 Q. Did you tell him anything else or did you have any

13 questions for him during the course of that conversation?

14 A. I asked what floor, who I would speak to, who I

15 should report to. He said just basically to give you an

16 orientation in admin before you actually start work that

17 day, filling out some more paperwork for my employment.

18 Q. Did Mr. Brouillet tell you he would send a

19 confirming letter?
20 A. No, he did not.
21 Q. Did you ask Mr. Brouillet whether you would

22 receive anything in writing?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Do you happen to know how long the position of

25 supervisory applications clerk was vacant before you filled

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1 it?

2 A. I had heard from people in section 245 later on

3 when I was actually in the position that the position had

4 been vacant for several months, for a few months, but it was

5 a period of time.

6 Q. You just mentioned section 245, could you describe

7 what section 245 refers to?

8 A. Section 245 at that time was on the tenth floor at

9 26 Federal Plaza. That was basically the clerical pool of

10 applications clerks, clerks that would process the

11 applications for citizenship visas, that type of thing. As

12 well as typists.

13 Q. After that conversation with Mr. Brouillet, what

14 is the next conversation that you had with anyone from INS

15 concerning the position of supervisory applications clerk?

16 A. Five days before I was to start employment at INS

17 I received a telephone call from Robert Brouillet saying

18 that he was rescinding the offer.
19 Q. Did Mr. Brouillet use the term rescind?
20 A. He said I would not be able to start.
21 Q. At that time was it your understanding that INS no

22 longer wished to hire you or wished to adjust your start

23 date?

24 A. They told me, Robert Brouillet told me that there

25 were people ahead of me who had points.

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1 Q. Do you know what Mr. Brouillet was referring to

2 when he referred to points?

3 A. I asked him. He said there are people on the

4 waiting list who are ahead of you.
5 Q. What else did Mr. Brouillet tell you?
6 A. He said, "Sit tight. This type of thing happens."
7 Q. What did you say to Mr. Brouillet in the course of

8 that conversation?

9 A. I said, "This creates a problem. Since you had

10 given me the offer I gave my current employer three weeks'

11 notice."
12 Q. What did Mr. Brouillet respond to that?
13 A. He said, "Sit tight. This type of thing happens

14 all the time."

15 Q. Did Mr. Brouillet give you any kind of idea in

16 terms of what to expect would happen next with the position

17 of supervisory applications clerk?

18 A. He said, "When I find out something I will call

19 you." He also said to keep in touch.

20 Q. At this time was it your understanding that INS

21 was going to hire someone else for the position of

22 supervisory applications clerk?
23 A. I did not know.
24 Q. What was your understanding at the time?
25 A. That I was without a position.

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1 Q. Did Mr. Brouillet tell you when he would contact

2 you next?

3 A. He said, "Keep in touch. I'll call you."

4 Something to the effect of, "I'll call you when I hear

5 something."

6 Q. Did he give you an idea of what it was he was

7 waiting to hear?

8 A. He said he was waiting to find out about the

9 individuals on the list.

10 Q. Did he lead you to believe that there was one

11 person on this list before you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What was your understanding of this list that he

14 was referring to?

15 A. That there were eight to nine people on the list

16 ahead of me.
17 Q. Do you know who compiled this list?
18 A. I believe it may have been -- I don't know for

19 sure. It may have been OPM. That's what I was led to

20 believe at the time.
21 Q. Do you know who was included on this list?
22 A. Individually?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. No. I don't know them individually.
25 Q. What about in some other way? Since you limited

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1 the question to individually, do you have an idea?
2 A. I have a suspicion.
3 Q. What is your suspicion?
4 A. People who at the time were of the correct

5 demographics for their purposes.

6 Q. When you say correct demographics, what are you

7 referring to?
8 A. African American.
9 Q. Any other particular demographic that you believe

10 was on the list?
11 A. Perhaps Hispanic, perhaps.
12 Q. Again, I'm only asking about your understanding of

13 this list. Was it your understanding that these were

14 African American and possibly Hispanics who had also

15 interviewed for this same position?
is MR. BRESSLER: Objection to the form.
17 THE WITNESS: Do I have to answer the question?
18 MR. BRESSLER: Yes.
19 A. That had also.
20 Q. Applied for the position of supervisory

21 applications clerk?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you know at the time anything about the

24 qualifications of the people on this so-called list?

25 A. Their individual qualifications?

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1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No. I did not know them personally.
3 Q. Did you have some suspicion about their

4 qualifications?
5 MR. BRESSLER: Objection to the form.
6 You can answer.
7 A. I suspected that their qualifications were that

8 they were African American.

9 Q. Do you have any understanding of their work

10 qualification aside from race? Do you have any knowing of

11 the work qualifications of the people on this so-called

12 list?

13 A. I don't quite understand. The list? If you could

14 narrow it down.

15 Q. You testified that you suspected that people on

16 the list were African American and possibly Hispanic. I'm

17 really asking whether you have any suspicions about whether

18 these people were equally qualified for the job, more

19 qualified for the job, or less qualified for the job than

20 you?

21 MR. BRESSLER: I'll object to the form about

22 suspicions.
23 Q. You can answer the question.
24 A. I got the distinct impression that they wanted an

25 African American for this position.

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1 Q. When did you first get that impression?
2 A. The very fact that when I would ask he would

3 talk -- excuse me. Mr. Brouillet talked about these people

4 having points. I said, "What does that mean?"
5 He said, "They are ahead of you."
6 I said, "What does that mean?" He couldn't answer

7 the question.
8 Q. Do you happen to know Mr. Brouillet's race?
9 A. He is Caucasian.
10 Q. Did he provide you with any explanation whatsoever

11 about what he was referring to when he used the word points?
12 A. He did not.
1_' Q. Did you ask Mr. Brouillet whether this had

14 anything to do with your race?
15 A. I did not.
16 Q. You mentioned that you believe that the people on

17 this so-called list were African American and possibly

18 Hispanic. Are there any demographics you believe helped

19 determine whether or not someone was on this so-called list?
20 A. Could you further define, if you would, please?
21 Q. Do you think that the religion of these

22 candidates had anything to do with their being on this

23 list?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do you have a belief?
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1 MR. BRESSLER: Objection. I believe it's asked

2 and answered, and the form.
3 You can answer.
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Do you think the issue of whether or not these

6 other candidates were disabled had anything to do with their

7 being on this so-called list?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Aside from Mr. Brouillet's reference to points and

10 his inability to explain that term, was there anything else

11 that contributed to your suspicion that the people on this

12 list were African American or possibly Hispanic?

13 A. When I was interviewed with, I believe it was

14 Linda Richman, if that's the correct name, and I was sitting

15 in the clerical pool I noticed that the vast majority of the

16 people were African American.

17 Q. When you say "vast majority," can you say

18 approximately how many employees you were viewing at

19 that time?
20 A. I would say approximately, give or take, maybe 15.
21 Q. And of those 15 employees how many are African

22 American?
23 A. I would say probably, give or take, two-thirds.
24 Q. Do you happen to know Miss Richman's race?
25 A. I believe she is African American.

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1 Q. Did you say anything to anyone about your

2 observation that the clerical employees appeared to be

3 approximately two-thirds African American?
4 A. To whom?
5 Q. Did you say anything to anyone at INS about that

6 observation?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. Did you say anything to anybody else about that

9 observation?
10 A. Outside of INS?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I may have mentioned it to my husband.
13 Q. What did you tell your husband about that

14 observation?

15 A. I told him that the clerical pool appeared to be

16 made up of various people, the vast majority -- different

17 types of people, the vast majority were African American.

18 Q. Were you simply reporting that information or did

19 it have some significance to you?
20 A. I was reporting the information.
21 Q. Focusing now solely on your conversation with Mr.

22 Brouillet, aside from what you already testified about, is

23 there anything else that led you to believe that this list

24 was comprised of individuals who were African American or

25 possibly Hispanic?

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1 A. Could you maybe define that a little bit further,

2 just give me more --

3 Q. It's really a question I asked earlier. Now I'm

4 making sure I'm getting everything from you that you

5 remember about this subject.

6 The question is, is there anything that Mr.

7 Brouillet told you in that telephone conversation that led

8 you to believe that the individuals on the list to which he

9 was referring were African American or possibly Hispanic?

10 A. He said that there are people -- he said that

11 there were people on the list who had points that put them

12 ahead of me on the list.

13 Q. Aside from his reference to points, was there

14 anything else that he said that led you to believe that the

15 individuals on that list were African American or possibly

16 Hispanic?
17 A. That's what I surmised.
18 Q. After you concluded the conversation with Mr.

19 Brouillet, what's the next thing that you did with respect

20 to the position of supervisory applications clerk?

21 A. I called Mr. Brouillet on several occasions asking

22 me about the position -- I'm sorry, asking him about the

23 position, if he had heard anything about the position.
24 Q. What did he respond to you?
25 A. Oftentimes he would not come to the phone and I

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1 would have to speak with a clerical person.

2 Q. Do you know how many times you called Mr.

3 Brouillet during this period?
4 A. At least twice, if not more.
5 Q. On how many occasions did you speak to Mr.

6 Brouillet himself?

7 A. Once or twice. My husband, if I may offer this,

8 also spoke with Mr. Brouillet.

9 Q. Let me ask you first about your own conversations

10 with Mr. Brouillet during this period.

11 What did you tell Mr. Brouillet or ask Mr.

12 Brouillet?

13 A. I asked Mr. Brouillet if he had any information on

14 when the position would become available.
15 Q. What did Mr. Brouillet tell you?
16 A. He would repeat "Sit tight."
17 Q. Did he have any other response for you during this

18 period?
19 A. He said, "This type of thing happens."
20 Q. Did he lead you to believe whether it was likely

21 or unlikely that you would eventually get the position of

22 supervisory applications clerk?

23 A. He left it open. Actually, I had given my notice

24 to my previous employer. I was still working there. I went

25 to my employer, my supervisor, Carey Shapiro, I explained

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1 the situation. She said you can stay and continue working

2 here. I had already given them notice however.

3 What happened at that point, was two weeks after

4 that conversation I was fired from Reiss Reports with the

5 explanation of they don't keep a person who has given them

6 notice. I was then without employment.

7 Q. Are there any documents with respect to your

8 having been fired from Reiss Reports?
9 A. There may be. I don't know offhand.
10 Q. Do you have in your own possession any documents

11 related to your being fired from Reiss Reports?
12 MR. BRESSLER: If you know.
13 A. I'm not sure. Again, it's been a while.
14 Q. Was the fact that you had given notice to Reiss

15 Reports the sole reason for your having been fired?
16 A. From Reiss Reports?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How do you know that?
20 A. Carey Shapiro told me that they can't keep a

21 person who has given them notice as an employee.
22 Q. Do you want to take another break?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. FISHER: Off the record.
25 (Discussion held off the record.)

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1 MR. FISHER: Back on the record.
2 Q. Mrs. Leventhal, you had mentioned that your

3 husband also had conversations with Mr. Brouillet after your

4 initial conversation in which he told you to sit tight. Do

5 you know what the substance of your husband's conversations

6 with Mr. Brouillet were?

7 A. Basically to find out how long the hiring process

8 would take.

9 Q. Do you know how many conversations you had with

10 Mr. Brouillet?
11 A. One or two.
12 Q. Did he find out how long the hiring process would

13 take?

14 A. I don't know. I believe the conversations that he

15 had with Mr. Brouillet were similar to the ones that I had

16 had with Mr. Brouillet.

17 Q. Is that to say that he never got a clear idea of

18 when it is that you would be able to start work as

19 supervisory applications clerk?
20 A. I don't believe so.
21 Q. Did your husband learn anything from Mr. Brouillet

22 that led him to believe that your employment was being held

23 up because of preference that was being given to African

24 Americans or Hispanics?

25 A. I believe -- could you define that if you would,

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1 please?

2 MR. FISHER: Could you please read back the

3 question?
4 (Whereupon the record was read.)
5 A. He may have.
6 Q. Do you know what he learned in that regard?
7 A. You should ask him. I don't mean to be flippant.
8 Q. I will hope to have an occasion ask Mr. Leventhal

9 that question. I'm asking you whether you know.

10 MR. BRESSLER: If you know.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Your answer is you don't know if he learned

13 anything else?
14 A. I really don't know.
15 Q. Aside from these additional phone calls to Mr.

16 Brouillet by you and your husband, what additional steps did

17 you take with respect to your INS employment during this

18 period? And the period I'm referring is the period after

19 you learned from Mr. Brouillet that you would not be able to
20 start on June 12, 1995.
21 A. At that point there really was very little I could

22 do except continue to call Mr. Brouillet, attempting to

23 reach him by phone.

24 Q. Did you contact any political leaders to get their

25 assistance?

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1 A. I believe that I had sent a letter to Mrs.

2 Clinton, Hillary Clinton which my husband had written for

3 me.

4 Q. Are there any other letters that you are aware of

5 to political leaders or others to help you, assist you in

6 your situation with the INS?

7 A. There may have been a letter, I'm trying to

8 remember the individual's name, in personnel, not New York,

9 but I believe, I think, in Syracuse, New York. I can't

10 remember his specific name about the position. Also I

11 believe Senator Al D'Amato.

12 Q. You believe that Senator D'Amato was contacted

13 with respect to this issue?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was he contacted in writing or by telephone?
16 A. Writing.
17 Q. Did you write the letter to Senator D'Amato or did

18 your husband?
19 A. My husband did.
20 Q. Did you sign the letter or did he?
21 A. I signed it.
22 Q. Did you review it before you signed it?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 MR. FISHER: I'm going to ask the court reporter

25 to mark as Defendant's Exhibit A a letter to Hillary Clinton

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1 dated June 12, 1995.
2 (Whereupon, the above-mentioned letter
3 was marked Defendant's Exhibit A
4 for identification.)
5 MR. FISHER: I'm handing the witness what has been

6 marked Defendant's Exhibit A and I'm also providing a copy

7 to counsel.

8 Q. Miss Leventhal, please review this document and

9 let me know whether you recognize it (handing).
10 A. (Complying.)
11 Q. Do you recognize the document?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is the document?
14 A. This is a document that was written by my husband

15 to Hillary Clinton dated June 12, 1995, explaining what had

16 happened to me.

17 Q. I notice that the document is not signed. Do you

18 know if the document that was ultimately sent was signed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know whether you signed it or your husband

21 signed it?
22 A. I signed it.
23 Q. If you would turn your attention to '-he fourth

24 paragraph in the letter.

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. The second sentence begins, "On May 19th after

2 intensive investigation of my background, Mr. Robert

3 Brouillet, Supervisory Personnel Management Specialist,

4 called me to say that I was approved for the position."

5 Does that refresh your recollection as to when that first

6 telephone conversation with Mr. Brouillet was?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it May 19th?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you could turn to the second page of the

11 exhibit.
12 A. (Complying.)
13 Q. If you look at the second paragraph, the second

14 sentence beginning "rather." Do you see where that sentence

15 "rather it was offered," it is referring to the position,

16 "was offered after a lengthy and rigorous interview process

17 with three management people, including my

18 experience, intelligence, and people skills to do the job."

19 Do you know who the three management people referred in that

20 sentence are?

21 A. That was Rose Chapman, Miss Gee, I don't know her

22 first name. I believe the third one was Linda, I think the

23 last name is Richman, but it might have been a different

24 variation of Richman but it started with Rich.

25 Q. Looking further down on the page, the paragraph

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1 beginning, "in addition to this."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That paragraph refers to your husband being

4 convinced that you are, "caught up in an affirmative action

5 quota problem." At the time of this letter was that your

6 view as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. It was not just your husband's view?
9 A. No.
10 Q. The second sentence in that same paragraph says

11 "He feels," referring to your husband, "He feels that a

12 member of a more favored minority group has either filed a

13 complaint or the affirmative action officer at OPM doesn't

14 want a white, Jewish woman for this position." The more

15 favored minority group referred to there, is that African

16 Americans?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you aware of any facts that support the view

19 that an African American had filed a complaint or that the

20 affirmative action officer at OPM did not want a white,

21 Jewish woman for the position?
22 A. Could you define that if you would, please?
23 Q. There is a statement here that your husband was of

24 the view that your employment was being held up at INS

25 because either a complaint had been filed by an African

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1 American or the affirmative action officer did not want to

2 hire a white, Jewish woman for the position. You indicated

3 that you share that view; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'm asking whether there are any facts that

6 support that view?
7 MR. BRESSLER: I'll object to the form.
8 If you know.
9 Q. I'm asking whether you are aware of any facts that

10 support that view?
11 A. Basically that is the conclusion that I came to.
12 Q. My question is simply, what is that conclusion

13 based upon?

14 A. It's based on the fact that Robert Brouillet had

15 said that I'm on a list and there are eight or nine people

16 ahead of me on the list and they would have to go through

17 the list and eliminate each individual until -- I had to

18 wait in turn. I had to wait for my turn according to Robert

19 Brouillet, because, again, there were people on this list.

20 Q. But Mr. Brouillet did not tell you who was on the

21 list, right?

22 A. He just said there were people on the list. He

23 didn't say specifically who.

24 Q. He did not even tell you generally that they were

25 African American, did he?

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1 A. No, he did not.
2 Q. Or that they were non-Jewish?
3 A. He told me that they had points and that they were

4 ahead of me.

5 Q. He did not tell you what the word points meant,

6 did he? Did he tell you what the word points meant? That's

7 the question.
8 A. He didn't explain it.
9 Q. Aside from the information you learned in your

10 conversation with Mr. Brouillet, are there any other facts

11 that support the view expressed in the paragraph that we are

12 referring to in Exhibit A? We are focusing on the paragraph

13 that refers to your. husband 's view which you share about the

14 affirmative action quota issue.

15 You identified the conversation with Mr. Brouillet

16 as one source that supports your view. Are there any other

17 facts that you are aware of that support that view?

18 A. Facts that would be specifically with this

19 situation or just in general? I don't quite understand the

20 question. If you could define it, please?

21 Q. My question is, are you aware of any other facts

22 aside from the conversation with Mr. Brouillet that support

23 the view that your employment at INS was being held up

24 because of some affirmative action issue?

25 A. I don't quite understand the question per se. If

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1 you could rephrase it.

2 Q. Earlier I asked you to identify facts that you are

3 aware of that support your view that your employment with

4 INS was being held up because preference was being given to

5 African Americans. One fact that you identified was Mr.

6 Brouillet's reference to points in his conversation with

7 you.

8 I'm asking whether there are any other facts that

9 you relied on in forming the view that your employment was

10 being held up because preference was given to African

11 Americans?
12 A. What other reasons would there be?
13 Q. So you are saying that you can't think of any

14 other reasons why anyone else would have priority over your

15 application?
16 A. No, I can't.
17 Q. So the only explanation that made sense to you was

18 that preference must be being given to African Americans?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did the First Lady respond to your letter?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the response?
23 A. Her secretary had sent a letter. I don't have the

24 letter in front of me.

25 Q. Do you know whether you have in your possession,

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1 generally, a copy of that letter?
2 A. I believe so, yes.
3 Q. What was the First Lady's secretary's response?
4 A. Basically something to the effect that it would be

5 looked into.

6 Q. Do you know whether the First Lady or her office

7 generally took any action with respect to your employment at

8 the INS?
9 A. I don't know for sure.
10 Q. Do you believe that they did?
11 A. They may have.
12 Q. Do you know if Mr. D'Amato's office took any

13 action with respect to your employment at INS?

14 A. Yes. He office did look into it. I remember that

15 I had gotten a letter from his office.

16 Q. What did his office report to you with respect to

17 your employment at the INS?

18 A. To my recollection they said that they would

19 contact an administrative law judge, a Judge Chu you at INS

20 in New York.

21 Q. Do you know whether Senator D'Amato's office in

22 fact contacted Judge Chu?
23 A. I believe so.
24 Q. Do you know what the result of that communication

25 was?

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1 A. I believe that Judge -- I'm not sure. Can you

2 define the question again?

3 Q. I'm just trying to find out what you learned about

4 any action that Senator D'Amato's office took on your behalf

5 with respect to your employment at INS. You had mentioned

6 they contacted Judge Chu. What happened as a result of

7 their contact with Judge Chu?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What happened as a result of their contact with

10 Judge Chu?

11 A. I wish I had the paperwork in front of me. I

12 apologize.

13 Q. Understanding that you don't have the paperwork in

14 front of you. What did Senator D'Amato's office ultimately

15 do on your behalf?

16 A. Senator D'Amato's office, as I said before,

17 contacted Judge Chu and they investigated to try to find out

18 what was going on with this particular situation.

19 Q. Are there any documents that you are aware of with

20 respect to that investigation?
21 A. There may be.
22 Q. Have you ever seen any documents with respect to

23 that investigation?

24 A. I believe I saw a letter from Judge Chu. I saw a

25 letter from Senator D'Amato.

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1 Q. Do you know whether Judge Chu or Senator D'Amato

2 reached any conclusion about why your employment with INS

3 was being held up?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. What was the next communication that you had with

6 anyone from INS with respect to your employment at INS?
7 A. I was very ill that summer. That was the summer
8 of 1995. The summer of 1995 I had an exacerbation of my

9 multiple sclerosis. The way it affects me, it creates a

10 situation where it's difficult to describe for someone who

11 does not have it but in my situation it creates problems as

12 far as understanding, you know, logic, understanding

13 communications, understanding conversations.

14 Q. The question is, what is the next communication

15 that you had with anyone from INS with respect to your

16 employment there?

17 A. As I recall that summer, as I said before, was

18 difficult because I was having an exacerbation of my

19 multiple sclerosis. I recall that I had gotten a letter in

20 the mail from Robert Brouillet in, I believe it was

21 September of 1995, after letters as we had discussed were

22 sent to Mrs. Clinton, Senator D'Amato, Judge Chu. My husband

23 after writing these letters because I was so ill at the time

24 I could not, had said that he would go to the media and

25 expose the situation. I received a letter from Robert

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1 Brouillet, I believe in September of 1995, offering me

2 employment as a supervisory applications clerk.

3 Q. Did any phone call precede the letter or did you

4 learn for the first time from this letter that you would be

5 offered the position of supervisory applications clerk?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. As best you can remember, the first that you heard

8 that you would be hired as supervisory applications clerk

9 was from this letter?

10 A. There may have been a telephone call prior to the

11 letter. I think there was. I explained to Mr. Brouillet

12 that I needed a letter confirming the offer. And I would

13 need some time before I could actualll:, start. .

14 Q. Focusing just on that conversation. It was in

15 that conversation that Mr. Brouillet told you that the INS

16 would hire you as supervisory applications clerk?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he tell you how that came about since you had

19 earlier been told that your employment was uncertain?

20 A. They had rescinded the offer. That's what

21 happened originally. Then they were making the offer again.

22 Q. When you say Mr. Brouillet had rescinded the

23 offer, are you referring to the earlier telephone

24 conversation where he told you, among other things, to sit

25 tight?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm sorry I interrupted you, you were telling what

3 else Mr. Brouillet told you.

4 A. He said you can start any time. You can start

5 now. I believe that was September of 1995. I told him that

6 I needed time. I needed some more time. I would be able to

7 start in October, late October of 1995.
8 Q. What did Mr. Brouillet say to that?
9 A. I had told him to send a letter of confirmation

10 and it said report on, I believe, October 23rd to admin.

11 Q. You agreed in that telephone conversation that you

12 would report on October 23rd?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You asked Mr. Brouillet to send a confirming

15 letter?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did Mr. Brouillet say when you asked him to

18 send a confirming letter?
19 A. He said that he would.
20 Q. October 23rd was the starting date that you had

21 proposed; is that right?

22 A. Yes, because he had wanted me to start before in

23 September. I believe early September, middle of September.

24 Q. Why is it that you did not want to start that

25 soon?

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1 A. I was recovering from my exacerbation of multiple

2 sclerosis that had started in the summer of 1995 because of

3 what had been created by the situation with my offer from

4 INS being rescinded.

5 Q. Then sometime after that conversation you received

6 the confirmation letter; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Between the period that you spoke to Mr. Brouillet

9 in which you agreed to the October 23rd start date and your

10 actual start at INS, did you have any additional

11 conversation with anyone else from INS?
12 A. I don't believe so.
13 Q. You mentioned before that your husband had told

14 someone that he was going to go to the media with this

15 issue. Do you know who he told?
16 A. The specific individual.
17 Q. Was it someone at INS?
18 A. I don't believe so. I believe it may have been --

19 I think that's a question that you should really ask him. I

20 honestly don't know at this point in time without looking

21 through the paperwork again.

22 Q. In describing the hiring process that you went

23 through you testified that you believe that preference was

24 given to African Americans. Was preference given to anyone

25 else in your view, any other demographic as you mentioned

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1 earlier in your view?
2 MR. BRESSLER: I'll object to the form.
3 MR. FISHER: If you want me to, I'll ask more

4 concrete.

5 Q. Do you believe preference was given to non-Jews in

6 the selection process?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is your basis for that?
9 A. My experiences.
10 Q. What experiences- are you referring to?
11 A. What we've just discussed.
12 Q. Aside from everything we discussed up until now,

13 is there anything else that makes you believe that

14 preference was given to non-Jews in the selection process?
15 A. I'm going on the basis of what happened to me.
16 Q. Do you believe in the selection process, the

17 hiring process, preference was given to non-disabled

18 employees?
19 A. It may have been.
20 Q. Do you know one way or the other?
21 A. Could you please define the question?
22 Q. In your complaint you allege that the hiring

23 process was discriminatory in that it gave preference to

24 African-Americans about which you've already testified

25 non-Jews, to which you just testified, and also to

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1 non-disabled people, preference was given to non-disabled

2 people. My question is simply, what are the facts that

3 support your view that preference was given to non-disabled

4 people in the hiring process?
5 A. What are the facts in my specific case?
6 Q. Yes. That support your view that there was a

7 delay in your being hired by the INS because of your

8 disability? I'm limiting the question just to the hiring

9 process. I'm not asking you to what happened after you

10 started your employment at INS.

11 MR. BRESSLER: I'll just object about what the

12 complaint says about the hiring process. I don't know if

13 that is what i,: says.
14 You can answer the question.
15 A. In my experience, as I stated before, I felt that

16 I was discriminated against because I'm caucasian, I follow

17 the Jewish religion, and I have a disability.

18 Q. Are you satisfied that you've told me all of the

19 facts that you are aware of that support that view with

20 respect to the hiring process at INS?
21 A. As much as I can at this moment.
22 MR. FISHER: It's now 12:15. I would propose we

23 take a lunch break now, if that's okay.

24 THE WITNESS: Could I have a conversation with

25 you?

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1 MR. BRESSLER: Yes.
2 MR. FISHER: Off the record at 12:16.
3 (Discussion held off the record.)
4 MR. BRESSLER: I spoke with Mrs. Leventhal and I

5 asked her if she can continue or if she would like to take

6 maybe an hour or more lunch break and see if maybe that

7 would help her. She has informed me that she really can't

8 continue at all today. She probably needs to sleep or

9 something, and she would -- I guess we will reschedule at a

10 later date or some other alternative.
11 THE WITNESS: Make other arrangements.
12 MR. FISHER: Obviously that is fine. We will

13 accommodate that request.
14 (TIME NOTED: 12:21 p.m.)
15 (Signature of witness)

16 Subscribed and sworn to

17 before me this

18 day of,

19 20

20

21

22

23

24

25

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Commentary and Editor's Notes written and Copyright © by:  LTC Michael G. Leventhal

Copyright 2000  Reproduction with written permission.  Contact: Michael @Justice-Denied.net