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C. B. LEVENTHAL 61

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

---------------------------------

CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,

Plaintiff,

- against -

HON. JANET RENO, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED

STATES,

Defendant.

-------------- -------------- --------

36 West 44th Street

New York, New York

May 2, 2000

2:05 P.M.

CONTINUING EXAMINATION BEFORE TRIAL of CARYL B.

LEVENTHAL, the Plaintiff herein, taken by the

Defendant, pursuant to Federal Rules and Regulations,

and Order, held at the above-mentioned time and place,

before Anita M. Cummo, a Notary Public of the State of

New York.

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2 MICHAEL R. BRESSLER, ESQ.

Attorney for Plaintiff

3 36 West 44th Street, 11th floor

New York, New York 10036

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

6 U.S. Attorney's Office

Southern District of New York

7 Attorney for Defendant

100 Church Street, 19th floor

8 New York, New York 10007

BY: ERIC B. FISHER

9 Assistant U.S. Attorney

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11 ALSO PRESENT:

12 LILA AYERS

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1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and

2 among counsel for the respective parties hereto, that

3 the sealing and certification of the within deposition

4 shall be and the same are hereby waived;

5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that

6 all objections, except to the form of the question,

7 shall be reserved to the time of the trial;

8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that

9 the within deposition may be signed before any Notary

10 Public with the same force and effect as if signed and

11 sworn to before the Court.

12 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that

13 counsel representing the witness examined herein shall

14 be furnished with a copy of the within deposition

15 without charge.

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1 C-A-R-Y-L B. L-E-V-E-N-T-H-A-L, after

2 having first been duly sworn by a Notary Public of the

3 State of New York, was examined and testified as

4 follows:

5 MR. FISHER: Good afternoon. Do you

6 understand that today's deposition is a

7 continuation of your earlier deposition?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

9 MR. FISHER: Let me briefly go over some of

10 the ground rules.

11 If you don't understand the question that I

12 put to you, let me know, and I will rephrase it

13 for you. Is that clear?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 MR. FISHER: You must provide an audible

16 response so the court reporter can take down

17 your answer. Is that clear?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 EXAMINATION BY

20 MR. FISHER:21 Q Please state your name for the record.

22 A Caryl B. Leventhal.

23 Q What is your present home address?

24 A 197 Seventh Avenue, Brooklyn, New York

25 11215.

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1 Q Is there any condition that you aware that

2 would interfere with your ability to provide truthful

3 and accurate testimony?

4 A No.

' 5 THE WITNESS: May I make a brief statement?

6 MR. FISHER: Is that in response to a

7 question?

8 THE WITNESS: No. This is a general

9 statement that I would like to make, if I may.

10 MR. FISHER: You have brought other

11 documents with you, today?

12 THE WITNESS: These are notes to organize

13 my thinking.

14 MR. FISHER: That's fine. I would ask that

15 at the conclusion of the deposition that I be

16 provided with copies of the notes.

17 MR. BRESSLER: Yes.

18 MR. FISHER: Read your statement.

19 THE WITNESS: "I feel okay now, but I have

20 multiple sclerosis. I get fatigued very easily.

21 When I become fatigued I suffer mental

22 confusion. I could easily misunderstand the

23 question and give the wrong answer."

24 MR. FISHER: I would say that if at any

25 time today you become aware of feeling confused

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1 or have any sense that your answers are not

2 accurate, let me know, and we can pause and give

3 you an opportunity to regain your composure at

4 that time. If, at any time, you don't feel well

5 enough to continue, then we can terminate the

6 deposition at that time.

7 THE WITNESS: I understand.

8 Q Am I correct that you claim that your

9 multiple sclerosis was exacerbated in the summer of

10 1995?

11 A Yes.

12 Q What do you mean that it was exacerbated?

13 A It was exacerbated by a premature offer

14 that was made by a Robert Brouillet of the I.N.S. for

15 the position of supervisory applications clerk.

16 Q You believe that that premature offer

17 caused the exacerbation of your multiple sclerosis; is

18 that right?

19 A I was given a specific date to start. At

20 about five days before the starting date, I received a

21 phone call, and he said I would not be able to start

22 because there were other people who had points that

23 were in front of me, but I did have and I had already

24 given notice to my current employer.

25 Q It's that situation that you believe caused

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1 the exacerbation of your multiple sclerosis?

2 A It did not help; let's put it that way. It

3 did not help.

4 Q When you say that it was exacerbated, how

5 did that manifest itself?

6 How did it affect you?

7 A Do you want symptoms? Symptoms is a

8 situation where I believe I am able to function in a

9 logical, coherent manner in a workplace as well as in

10 my daily routine.

11 MR. FISHER: Yes, that's the question.

12 Q What kind of activity can you not do during

13 the period of time when your multiple sclerosis is

14 exacerbated?

15 A I am not able to work. I am not able to,

16 basically -- What specifically are you referring to?

17 I know you said daily routine, but I am not able to

18 work. I am not able to basically, say, for example,

19 take the subway to work. I am not able to do much

20 more than walk my dog around the block.

21 Q When did this period of exacerbation begin,

22 as best you can tell, in the summer of 1995?

23 A Are you looking for a specific day, a

24 specific month?

25 Q As specific as you can be.

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1 A This, I believe, was June of 1995.

2 Q Approximately how long did this period of

3 exacerbation last?

4 A This lasted for several months.

5 Q Was your improvement gradual or was there a

6 radical improvement following a period of

7 exacerbation?

8 A It's usually gradual.

9 Q At what point were you feeling well?

10 At what point were you feeling well enough

11 to commence work?

12 A I did not have a job to go to.

13 Q At what point did you feel as though you

14 were well enough to start work, if you had a job?

15 A It would have been late October of 1995.

16 Q After your initial conversation with

17 Mr. Brouillet when he made a premature offer, did you

18 have a subsequent conversation with him?

19 A It's been so long.

20 Q Did there come a time when Mr. Brouillet

21 invited to you start work at the Immigration and

22 Naturalization Service?

23 A I finally, after several phone calls made

24 by my husband as well as myself, I finally received a

25 letter in, I believe, September of 1995 offering me

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1 the position of supervisory applications clerk.

2 Q What did you do in response to the letter?

3 A I told him that I would be able to start in

4 late October of 1995.

5 Q Was that a telephone conversation that you

6 had with Mr. Brouillet?

7 A I don't recall. It may have been.

8 Q Or it may have been in person?

9 A It was not in person.

10 Q Do you recall when this conversation took

11 place?

12 A It also may have been a letter.

13 Q You may have notified Mr. Brouillet by

14 letter that you felt prepared to begin employment in

15 October of 1995?

16 A Right, middle to late October of 1995.

17 Q Is that, in fact, when you began your

18 employment with the I.N.S.?

19 A I began employment in I.N.S. October 23rd

20 or 25th of 1995.

21 Q On your first day of work, who did you

22 report to?

23 A I reported to Robert Brouillet. Actually,

24 the first people that I saw, I believe, were -- I'm

25 trying to remember their names, the two clerical

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1 people in Admin, A-D-M-I-N.

2 Q What was the substance of your meeting with

3 the two clerical employees in Admin?

4 A It was basically -- I'm trying to think of

5 the correct words. It was an introduction, for lack

6 of a better word, to the functions of the I.N.S. and

7 an overview of the I.N.S.

8 Q Did that include a discussion of the

9 specific position for which you were hired?

10 A That had been done during the interviewing

11 process.

12 Q During the interviewing process, who was it

13 that described to you what your responsibilities would

14 be as supervisory applications clerk?

15 A There was a Rose Chapman and a woman, I

16 don't recall -- her last name was Gee.

17 Q G-E-E?

18 A It may be, yeah.

19 MR. BRESSLER: Maybe G-E.

20 Q What did these two women tell you about the

21 position?

22 A They said that I would be supervising the

23 clerical pool in Section 245, and I would be

24 responsible basically for the flow of paperwork within

25 that area. They also told me that anything they had

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1 said, I remember, I believe it was Miss Chapman, Rose

2 Chapman said, "We will be able to train you. You will

3 have training as you go along." They were very

4 impressed with my background.

5 Q Did they tell you how many clerical

6 employees you would be supervising?

7 A They said approximately 20 to 30.

8 Q Did they tell you what your hours would be?

9 A They said that I had a choice of hours.

10 Q What was the choice?

11 A Actually, that was later on when I got

12 there. They said the choice of hours, I believe,

13 would be 7:30 to three o'clock or 8:30 to five

14 o'clock.

15 Q Which of those choices did you ultimately

16 select?

17 A The early one.

18 Q 7:30 to three?

19 A Yes, right, 7:30 to three.

20 Q Did they give you a sense of the volume of

21 paperwork that you would be responsible for?

22 A They said it was -- basically, the

23 situation were cases are constantly being adjudicated,

24 that there is a steady flow of paperwork.

25 Q Before you started work at the I.N.S., did

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1 you have any other conversations with anyone else

2 about the specific responsibilities of the position of

3 supervisory applications clerk?

4 A Before I actually started?

5 Q Yes.

6 A Okay. When I had first gone on the

7 interview with Miss Gee, Rose Chapman, I had

8 discussions with them. That was basically it. There

9 was another person. I'm trying to remember her name.

10 I think it was a Mary Richards, Richardson. I'm not

11 sure of the name.

12 Q But you had a conversation with this person

13 about the responsibilities of the position?

14 A Yes. But please understand these

15 conversations were not specific. They were relatively

16 vague.

17 Q What do you recall about conversations with

18 Miss Richards or Richardson?

19 A She had shown me where the clerical pool

20 was, the tenth floor, and she was pointing out

21 specific individuals in the clerical pool commenting

22 on their backgrounds in terms of, you know, the amount

23 of work a specific person would do. Some were better

24 than others.

25 Q Did she tell you anything else about the

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1 position?

2 A Basically, she said it was a situation

3 where the idea is just to keep the paperwork flowing.

4 Q Did you see anything in writing that

5 detailed the responsibilities of the supervisory

6 applications clerk?

7 A I'm sorry?

8 Q Before you began your appointment with

9 I.N.S.?

10 A No, I don't recall that.

11 Q Did there come a time that you did see a

12 written job description for supervisory applications

13 clerk?

14 A I don't recall that.

15 Q Is it fair to say that your understanding

16 of what the position entailed was based on those

17 conversations that you just detailed for me?

18 A Yes.

19 Q On your first day of work after you

20 reported to the two clerical employees in

21 Administration, who did you report to next?

22 A I saw Robert Brouillet.

23 Q What was the substance of your meeting with

24 Mr. Brouillet?

25 A Very brief. He walked by me, he looked at

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1 me, and he said, "I wanted to see what you looked

2 like."

3 Q What do you think he meant by that?

4 A Well, I took -- it was almost an accusatory

5 type, an accusatory manner, any information that I had

6 gotten about, for example, benefits of the two

7 clerical individuals, the two clerical people from

8 Admin had given me, okay. That was basically what

9 they had told me verbally, but he did not go into any

10 detail about anything. It was almost -- it was almost

11 as if he did not want to speak to me. I also remember

12 seeing a film on I.N.S., the overall function of

13 I.N.S. within the Justice Department and what the

14 I.N.S. does very generalized and that was presented by

15 the two clerical individuals. I remember this one's

16 name, I can't remember, Earlene, and I forgot name of

17 the other person.

18 Q Aside from telling you that he wanted to

19 see what you looked like, did he tell you anything

20 else?

21 A Nothing.

22 Q Mr. Brouillet walked by, said that he

23 wanted to see what you looked like and continued

24 walking?

25 A Yes. I was sitting down as I am here

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1 looking at you. He was standing over me. He peered

2 in my face, did not smile, said "I wanted to see what

3 you looked like" in a very ominous tone.

4 Q In your view, why is it that Mr. Brouillet

5 was speaking to you in an ominous tone and in an

6 accusatory manner?

7 A He had made an offer to me, the initial

8 offer in, I believe, May of 1995. I was to start in

9 June of 1995. He rescinded the offer and over that

10 summer, after a series of phone calls between.

11 myself -- he would not come to the phone, I might

12 have -- often times when I would call, he would not

13 come to the phone. I would speak to Stephanie and

14 Mr. Brouillet would not be available. I remember he

15 told my husband just sit tight. He told me that,

16 excuse me, just sit tight. This type of thing happens

17 all the time.

18 Q In total, just so that I understand the

19 complete picture, how many telephone conversations did

20 you have with Mr. Brouillet before you reported to

21 work at the I.N.S. in October of 1995?

22 A Me, personally?

23 Q First, you personally.

24 A I believe I spoke with him once or twice.

25 Q How many telephone conversations did your

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1 husband have with Mr. Brouillet before you started

2 work?

3 A That I don't know. Twice, maybe three

4 times. There were letters, however, that my

5 husband -- and at my instruction because I was not

6 able to because I was having an exacerbation of my

7 multiple sclerosis at that time, wrote to

8 Mr. Brouillet for me requesting that my offer be

9 reinstated.

10 Q Did Mr. Brouillet ever respond to those

11 letters in writing?

12 A I don't believe so. I may be wrong on

13 that. I don't believe so.

14 Q Based on the telephone conversations and

15 letters exchanged with Mr. Brouillet, you believe that

16 those form the basis for Mr. Brouillet's ominous tone

17 and accusatory manner on your first day of work?

18 A I don't understand the question. If you

19 could -

20 MR. FISHER: I will rephrase.

21 THE WITNESS: Please, if you would.

22 MR. FISHER: I withdraw that question.

23 Q Did you have any other interaction with

24 Mr. Brouillet on your first day of employment?

25 A No.

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Q At what point during the day did

Mr. Brouillet walk by you?

A In the morning. I mean, I reported at 7:30

in the morning.

Q Who else did you meet with during your

first day at work?

A Well, I met with Stephanie from Admin. I

think her name was Stephanie Braun, I believe, and

there was another individual. I think her name was

Earlene or whatever.

Q Do you know whether those two employees

report to Mr. Brouillet?

A Yes, they do. They did at that time.

Q You mentioned the film about the I.N.S. and

general information that they provided to you about

the I.N.S.

A Yes.

Q Did they provide you with any information?

A Pertaining to what, specifically, benefits?

Q Pertaining to your employment with I.N.S.,

anything else that you can remember about your meeting

with them?

A Well, basically, it was filling out forms

as far as benefits, who my beneficiary would be,

things like that.

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1 Q Did you say anything in response to

2 Mr. Brouillet when he said, "I just wanted to see what

3 you looked like"?

4 A Not that I recall. I may have said

5 "Hello."

6 Q Did he shake your hand?

7 A No.

8 Q After your meeting with the two clerical

9 employees, who did you report to next?

10 A I was taken by one of the two clerical

11 people to the tenth floor to Section 245.

12 Q Did they show you to your desk?

13 A They introduced me to people in Section 245

14 on the tenth floor. They showed me the people there.

15 I believe it was Brenda Grant, also Gwynne MacPherson.

16 They showed me where my desk would be.

17 Q Did they tell you who your supervisor would

18 be?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Who was that?

21 A Brenda Grant.

22 Q How did you find out that Ms. Grant was

23 your supervisor?

24 A I believe she told me.

25 Q Did you report to anyone?

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1 Were you told that you would be reporting

2 to anyone else aside from Ms. Grant?

3 A Ms. Grant was my first-line supervisor,

4 when Gwynne MacPherson was my second-line supervisor.

5 Q Did you have any conversations with

6 Ms. Grant during your first day of employment about

7 your responsibilities as supervisory applications

8 clerk?

9 A I'm sure I did.

10 Q Do you recall anything about those

11 conversations?

12 A Not offhand.

13 Q Do you recall any conversation at all that

14 you had with Ms. Grant during your first day of work?

15 A Pertaining to what, specifically?

16 Q Pertaining to your employment there, your

17 responsibilities or anything that related to your

18 employment at I.N.S.

19 A Please understand, it's been almost four

20 and a half years. This was October of 1995, so time

21 has flown.

22 Q You cannot remember any conversation?

23 A Well, I can't remember specific

24 conversations per se. I do remember when I was taken

25 to the tenth floor meeting, Brenda Grant, Gwynne

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1 MacPherson, they were all standing in the back of the

2 room, and Gwynne MacPherson said, "We have been

3 waiting for you" in an almost intimidating manner.

4 Q What do you mean when you say she said "We

5 have been waiting for you" in an intimidating manner"

6 A It wasn't "Welcome, we're glad to see you."

7 No one ever said that.

8 Q Did she mean to imply or is it your

9 understanding that there was much work to be done?

10 A I do not know.

11 Q Could you recall any other interaction

12 either with Ms. MacPherson or Ms. Grant on that first

13 day of work?

14 A No, I don't.

15 Q Aside from Ms. Grant and Ms. MacPherson,

16 did you report to anyone else at I.N.S.?

17 A At that time, no.

18 Q On that first day of work, did you actually

19 get any work done or was it mostly a day devoted to

20 orientation?

21 A More orientation.

22 Q Did anyone talk to you about what your job

23 entailed and how you should go about doing it?

24 MR. BRESSLER: On the first day?

25 MR. FISHER: To begin with, let's start

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1 with the first day.

2 A They introduced me to people, the various

3 people in the clerical pool. I do remember that,

4 being introduced to people there.

5 Q These are the people who you were to be

6 supervising?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Do you recall how many clerical employees

9 you met that day?

10 A Probably, give or take, about 15, 16.

11 Q Altogether, how many employees did report

12 to you?

13 A At what point in time?

14 Q Within your first few months of work.

15 A It varied. It did vary. It could have

16 been anywhere from maybe 15 up to 20.

17 Q During your entire period of time of

18 employment with I.N.S., did the number of employees

19 who reported to you vary between 15 and 20,

20 approximately?

21 A It could have been more.

22 Q Did all of those 15 to 20 employees or

23 possibly more report directly to you?

24 A Yes.

25 Q There was no supervisor in between you and

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1 those clerical employees?

2 A Not officially.

3 Q How about unofficially?

4 A Unofficially, Brenda Grant who had, from

5 what I understand, had been the supervisory

6 applications clerk in that position for several years.

7 She still was basically supervising the area.

8 Q At what point did that become clear to you?

9 A That became clear after the first few days.

10 Q When you say "she was still basically

11 supervising the area," what do you mean?

12 A She was there. She micromanaged even

13 though she was further up. She wasn't an applications

14 clerk. She had been an applications clerk at one

15 time, and from what I observed, she micromanaged the

16 area even though she was not the supervisory

17 applications clerk.

18 Q What are some examples of her micromanaging

19 the area?

20 A Basically, for example, when she would have

21 meetings for, you know, staff, what I refer to as

22 "staff," there were often times when I was not even

23 told that a meeting was going to be taking place, and

24 I was left out of the loop. But she would go to my

25 supervisor. Excuse me, I'm trying to think of the

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1 titles. The lead clerk, Dolores Filbert. She would

2 always go to Dolores Filbert who was under me and she

3 would talk to Dolores Filbert what had to be done or

4 needed to be done in the area rather than going to me

5 directly.

6 Q You referred to Dolores Filbert as the lead

7 clerk?

8 A Yes.

9 Q What were the responsibilities of the lead

10 clerk?

11 A The lead clerk, from I understand, is there

12 to assist the supervisory applications clerk, which I

13 was, in the day-to-day distribution of work to make

14 sure that everyone in the clerical pool had work to do

15 and to make sure that the work itself was that the

16 flow of work was, you know, kept in motion.

17 Q When did you first meet Ms. Filbert?

18 A I believe it was the first day.

19 Q As supervisory applications clerk, were you

20 actually responsible for doing the paperwork or was it

21 merely a supervisory role?

22 A A supervisory role.

23 Q How about lead clerk?

24 Was Ms. Filbert responsible for doing the

25 clerical work, or was it her responsible for managing

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1 the flow of the paperwork?

2 A She was to assist in managing the flow of

3 the paperwork. She had been there, from what I

4 understand, she had been there for several years, ten

5 years, and she had been hired by Ms. Grant. They knew

6 each other for several years.

7 Q What's Ms. Filbert's race?

8 A She is Caucasian.

9 Q How about Ms. Grant?

10 A Ms. Grant is an African-American.

11 Q How about Ms. MacPherson?

12 A Ms. MacPherson is Caucasian married to an

13 African-American.

14 Q Do you know the race of the spouse of

15 either Ms. Filbert or Ms. Grant?

16 A Ms. Grant's spouse is African-American. I

17 do not know the race of Ms. Filbert's husband. I

18 assume it's Caucasian.

19 Q Before you became supervisory applications

20 clerk, was the position vacant?

21 A I believe the person who preceded me was an

22 African-American who lived in Queens and had retired

23 after several years work for I.N.S.

24 Q Do you know when she retired?

25 A That I don't. I believe it was -- I

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1 believe it was the winter of 1995. Excuse me, I

2 believe it was actually the fall of 1994.

3 Q To the best of your knowledge, from the

4 fall of 1994, until you began work in October of 1995,

5 was there someone else who had the title of

6 supervisory applications clerk?

7 A I don't believe so, but I'm not sure.

8 Q During that period of time, do you know who

9 performed the functions that were to be performed by

10 the supervisory applications clerk?

11 A I do not know.

12 Q Do you know who Ms. MacPherson, your

13 second-line supervisor, reported to?

14 A She reported to a Mr. Edward McIlroy.

15 Q Did you ever have occasion to meet

16 Mr. McIlroy?

17 A No, I did not.

18 Q To this day, that's true?

19 A Yes, that's still true.

20 Q During your period of employment with the

21 I.N.S., did you ever have any other title aside from

22 supervisory applications clerk?

23 A No, I did not.

24 Q What was your salary when you began your

25 employment with I.N.S.?

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A I believe it was -- I don't have it in

front of me. I believe it was approximately

twenty-three thousand three hundred when I started.

Q Do you know what it was at the time that

you stopped working for I.N.S.?

A When I was fired?

Q Yes.

A It was over twenty-four thousand.

Q Was it less than twenty-five thousand?

A Yes.

Q During your period of employment with the

I.N.S., did you ever work overtime?

A Yes, I did.

Q Approximately, how often would you work

overtime?

A In terms of number of hours or because,

excuse me, it would go on an hourly basis.

Q In terms of number of hours then.

A Per week, I may have worked maybe -- now

again, please understand it's been several years since

all this has happened, but, I believe, on the average

maybe five, six hours, maybe eight hours.

Q Per week?

A Per week. Sometimes there were no hours of

overtime.

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1 Q How were you compensated for overtime

2 hours?

3 A I believe it was time and a half.

4 Q How did you learn to do your job as

5 supervisory applications clerk?

6 A I asked questions. I asked a lot of

7 questions and, basically, I tried to have various

8 applications clerks sit with me to show me how to do

9 the work. Actually, the job of the applications

10 clerk -- is that what you are referring to?

11 Q Yes. I'm referring to your job as

12 supervisory applications clerk.

13 The question is how you learned to perform

14 the responsibilities of that job?

15 A I would ask Ms. Grant. I would ask

16 Ms. MacPherson. I would also ask Dolores Filbert

17 because Ms. Filbert had been there at that time

18 several years, ten years.

19 Q Anyone else?

20 A Not that I can think of.

21 Q You referred a moment ago to applications

22 clerks?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Did you also speak to applications clerks

25 to get an understanding of how you could best perform

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1 your job?

2 A I spoke to applications clerks to

3 understand what they were doing since I was

4 supervising the flow of their work.

5 Q Focusing now on Ms. Grant, what did you

6 learn from Ms. Grant about what she expected of you in

7 terms of your job performance?

8 A With Ms. Grant, it was a situation -- she

9 was concerned about having paperwork done and pushed

10 through as quickly as possible.

11 Q She expected you to supervise a large

12 quantity of paperwork?

13 A She did. She also expected it to be pushed

14 through as quickly as possible whether it was correct

15 or incorrect.

16 Q Did she ever tell you that she didn't care

17 whether the work was correct or incorrect?

18 A She didn't have to.

19 Q Why not?

20 A Because of her attitude.

21 Q What was it about her attitude that made

22 you feel she did not care about the quality of the

23 work?

24 A Because she emphasized that basically the

25 work had to be done and it had to be pushed through.

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1 Q Aside from telling you that she expected

2 you to push through a lot of the work very quickly,

3 what else did Ms. Grant tell you about what she

4 expected of you in your role as supervisory

5 applications clerk?

6 A She wanted me to make sure -- she wanted me

7 to make sure that I knew where each and every clerical

8 person was at any given moment.

9 Q She told you that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Anything else that she told you she

12 expected of as supervisory applications clerk?

13 A Could you? I'm sorry. Could you? I don't

14 quite understand the question.

15 Q I am asking about anything that Ms. Grant

16 communicated to you about her expectations for your

17 work as supervisory applications clerk.

18 A Okay. The clerical people had a tendency

19 rather that doing their work and just wandering around

20 and disappearing, and she wanted to know where each

21 person was at any given time. If I was not sitting at

22 my desk, she would say "Where's this person or that

23 person?" If I got up, she would later say "You were

24 not at your desk. You should be at your desk at all

25 times to supervise these people."

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1 Q In addition to the items that you already

2 identified, knowing the whereabouts of all the

3 clerical employees, processing a large quantity of

4 work very quickly, was there anything else that

5 Ms. Grant indicated to you about what she expected of

6 you as supervisory applications clerk?

7 A If you could ask me a specific question. I

8 can't give a vague generality.

9 MR. FISHER: I'm not asking for a vague

10 generality. I can't give a more specific

11 question because I don't know the information,

12 and I'm trying to learn it from you.

13 Q The question is, in thinking about if you

14 had to make a list of everything that Ms. Grant said

15 about what she expected of you as supervisory

16 applications clerk, what would you include on that

17 list?

18 A I would include the fact that, as I said

19 before, she wanted me to be able to tell her at any

20 given time where each person was in the clerical pool,

21 and again, they had a tendency, many of them,

22 wandering around, being in the hallway, being on

23 different floors and not doing their work, and she

24 wanted to, you know, make sure that I knew at any

25 given time where they were, any of these various

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1 people and again, I was to be at my desk at each

2 morning when everybody signed on the sign-in sheet.

3 She was fixated that I should be sitting there when

4 everybody signed in. That was another thing that she

5 was also fixated about.

6 Q You were responsible for the sign-in sheet?

7 A Yes, I was.

8 Q Who told you that you were responsible for

9 the sign-in sheet?

10 A Ms. Grant.

11 Q And the sign-in sheet rested on your desk?

12 A Yes, it did.

13 Q Did you know why Ms. Grant wanted you there

14 when each employee signed in?

15 A She wanted me to make sure that they signed

16 in at the time that they arrived; that they did not

17 say, for example, if a person was to start work at

18 nine o'clock, she didn't want a situation where they

19 came in at 9:15 and wrote nine o'clock, which people

20 would try to do from time to time.

21 Q She wanted you to supervise the sign-in

22 sheet to make sure that did not happen?

23 A Right. That's what she told me.

24 Q Continuing with this list, was there

25 anything else that she told you about your

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1 responsibilities as supervisory applications clerk?

2 A Not that I can think of offhand. I'm sure

3 more will come out -- come up. I'm sorry.

4 Q Were you responsible for, aside from the

5 sign-in sheet, were you responsible for employee time

6 sheets?

7 A That's what that was. Those were the time

8 sheets.

9 Q Would employees sign out on those sheets as

10 well?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Did Ms. Grant want you to supervise their

13 signing out as well?

14 A Not as much as their signing in. There was

15 a particular individual, a Sean Davis, who, I believe,

16 came in -- was to come in every morning from 8:30

17 until, you know, five. Rather, often times he would

18 be coming in 8:30 and he would come in quarter to nine

19 and, basically, as I recall the way the sign-in sheets

20 were set up, it would be according to increments of

21 every 15 minutes. Okay. The idea was to sign in

22 exactly when you came in. Mr. Davis, as well as other

23 individuals, but he does come to mind, would sign in

24 around, excuse me, 8:45. He would sign in at 8:30.

25 Sometimes he would not come in at all.

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1 Q Were you responsible for answering anyone's

2 telephone?

3 A I was responsible for answering the phone

4 on my desk.

5 Q Would you take messages for people and

6 convey the messages?

7 A It depended on who they were looking for.

8 Sometimes calls would come in and say it would be, for

9 example, for Ms. Grant or Ms. MacPherson, and later on

10 for Ms. Agatha Stewart, although, I believe, she was

11 on the eighth floor. So I would take messages.

12 Q Aside from the people that you just

13 mentioned, did you take messages for anyone else?

14 A Not that I recall, but I may have.

15 Q Were you responsible for the annual leave

16 and sick leave records for the employees?

17 A Yes, I was.

18 Q Who told you that you were responsible for

19 those records?

20 A Ms. Grant. I believe this was Ms. Grant.

21 Q What did she tell you about your

22 responsibilities with regard to annual leave and sick

23 leave records?

24 A These are vague questions. If you could be

25 more specific.

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1 Q How did Ms. Grant communicated to you what

2 your day-to-day responsibilities were with respect to

3 annual leave and sick leave records?

4 A Basically, the idea of a person taking time

5 off, it would be according to how much time they had

6 accrued, how much sick time, annual leave, annual sick

7 leave, annual leave, that sort of thing.

8 Q Did you keep track of the time that each of

9 your employees had accrued?

10 A I believe we had a list of how much they

11 had taken and how much they had accrued.

12 Q What exactly were your responsibilities

13 with respect to the maintenance of this list?

14 A To make sure that if a person was taking

15 annual leave that they had that annual leave

16 available.

17 Q What about their scheduling of annual

18 leave, would that go through you?

19 A That would go through me.

20 Q If an employee who you supervised wanted

21 annual leave, what would they do?

22 A They could come to me and tell me that they

23 wanted to take such and such a day and such and such a

24 week, and I would check to see if they had that annual

25 leave accrued.

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1 Q Did your decision about denying or

2 approving annual leave have to be approved by any of

3 your supervisors?

4 A I think eventually, first, it would be

5 approved by me and then it would be approved by

6 Ms. Grant.

7 Q Did you ever report directly to

8 Ms. MacPherson?

9 A I may have, initially.

10 Q When you say "initially," do you know for

11 what period of time?

12 A When I had first started. You have to

13 understand the situation in Section 245. It is so

14 incredibly fluid that often times it was hard to

15 determine who was to be reported to for what purpose.

16 Q Did you ever have an understanding that you

17 were to report to Ms. Grant with respect to certain

18 responsibilities and someone else with respect to

19 other responsibilities?

20 A The idea was I was to report directly to

21 Ms. Grant. But, then again, often times it was a

22 situation where if she was not available then I could

23 go to Ms. MacPherson. Again, it was very fluid.

24 Q Did Ms. MacPherson ever describe to you

25 what she expected of you in your position as

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1 supervisory applications clerk?

2 A Not that I can recall.

3 Q Am I right that there came a time that Miss

4 Stewart replaced Ms. Grant as your first-line

5 supervisor?

6 A Yes.

7 Q When was that?

8 A I believe that was early 1996 she became my

9 first-line supervisor.

10 Q Did you continue to have some reporting

11 relationship to Ms. Grant after Ms. Stewart became

12 your first-line supervisor?

13 A I believe at that time she became my

14 second-line supervisor, but I would report to

15 Ms. Stewart first.

16 Q During the period of time when Ms. Stewart

17 was your first-line supervisor, what was

18 Ms. MacPherson's position?

19 A I believe she was a third-line supervisor.

20 Q During the period after Ms. Stewart's

21 became your first-line supervisor, did you ever report

22 to Ms. MacPherson?

23 A Well, you mean directly?

24 Q Yes, directly.

25 A I don't believe so because, again,

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1 Ms. Stewart in early 1996 became my first-line

2 supervisor.

3 Q Before Ms. Stewart became your first-line

4 supervisor, did you ever have occasion to work with

5 her?

6 A Not really. I mean, I would see her, of

7 course, but I didn't really work with her.

8 Q Do you know what her position was before

9 she became your first-line supervisor?

10 A She was district administrative officer,

11 but they were referred to as a DAO.

12 Q When she became your first-line supervisor,

13 what was her position then?

14 A I believe it was senior DAO.

15 Q Did Ms. Stewart ever have a conversation

16 with you about what she expected of you as supervisory

17 applications clerk?

18 A Ms. Stewart was very big on yelling. She

19 was very big on telling me to shut up when I would ask

20 her questions.

21 Q Did she ever communicate to you what she

22 expected of you in your position as supervisory

23 applications clerk?

24 A Not really.

25 Q When she replaced Ms. Grant as your

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1 first-line supervisor, did you understand what was

2 expected of you to essentially remain the same?

3 A I'm sorry?

4 Q Did you understand Ms. Stewart's

5 expectations of you to be the same as those of

6 Ms. Grant?

7 A We never had a conversation where she

8 expressed expectations one way or the other.

9 Q Did you have any conversation with

10 Ms. Filbert about what you expected of her in her

11 capacity as lead clerk?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Would you have such conversations often?

14 A Yes.

15 Q How often?

16 A Every other day, practically.

17 Q What were the issues that you would discuss

18 in these conversations?

19 A Basically, the problem was that -- you are

20 referring to Ms. Filbert; is that correct?

21 Q Correct.

22 A She would sit and she would not get up.

23 She would not assist me as far as passing out work to

24 the clerical staff as well as the typists. She would

25 sit behind her desk which was piled with folders, and

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1 she would yell and scream, actually, literally, yell

2 and scream at the clerical pool, and she would yell

3 and scream at me which -- that was a mistake on her

4 part because I remember one day we had a very heated

5 exchange. I will not -- I do not yell and scream at

6 people. Period. I have never yelled and screamed at

7 people that I supervise, let alone people that I work

8 with. It's very unprofessional. It's not the type of

9 thing that you get away with in private industry, and

10 it should not occur in the workplace. We had this

11 heated exchange initiated by Ms. Filbert and,

12 interesting enough, the clerical pool suddenly became

13 quiet. There was no conversation at all, dead

14 silence, and she finally stopped. I said, "You have

15 to help me. I can't do this by myself. I can't pass

16 all this work out by myself." Then after that she

17 went to Ms. Grant, ran into Ms. Grant's office

18 sitting, talking, gossiping, which she did every

19 morning anyway from the hours of 8:30 until nine

20 o'clock because Ms. Filbert started at nine o'clock.

21 She was always, in my experience there, she was always

22 running to Ms. Grant reporting on everything that had

23 happened. She was known as basically Ms. Grant's

24 toady, for lack of a better word. She would come into

25 work a half hour early to talk to Ms. Grant before her

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1 workday started.

2 Q A half hour early?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Aside from this heated exchange that you

5 referred to, in the heated exchange did you tell her

6 not to yell at you?

7 A Yes, I did. I told her You are here as the

8 lead clerk to assist me. You are really second in

9 command here, to use a military term, and basically

10 just to make sure that everyone has work to do. It's

11 not the responsibility of the supervisory applications

12 clerk to do it all on his or her own, and she replied

13 by yelling and screaming "I have all this work. Look

14 at the work on my desk," and as I said before, the

15 conversations stopped, dead silence, in the workplace,

16 and everyone was watching us because everyone in the

17 clerical pool on the tenth floor, they treated her

18 like a joke. They did not take her seriously.

19 Ms. Filbert, Dolores Filbert had told me to get them

20 to do anything -- to get them to do anything, you have

21 to yell at them, and I said before I don't yell at

22 people. This not the way I conducted business. This

23 is not acceptable.

24 Q Because of her demeanor she was not an

25 effective lead clerk?

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1 A No, she was not.

2 Q Aside from the heated exchange that you had

3 mentioned earlier, what other communication did you

4 have with her to convey your dissatisfaction about the

5 way she was performing her duties?

6 A That was the main one, and if I ever asked

7 if any files were done, she would ignore me or she

8 would walk away or she would go into Ms. Grant's

9 office and she would come running out and start

10 yelling at me. Ms. Grant would come running out.

11 Q During the entire period of your employment

12 at I.N.S., was the relationship between you and

13 Ms. Filbert consistently strained in that way or did

14 it sometimes improve and then sometimes get worse

15 again.

16 A Improve to what? You know, really, what?

17 It was always very tense. It was always very tense.

18 She was always running to Ms. Grant and giving

19 Ms. Grant reports.

20 Q What was she reporting to Ms. Grant about?

21 A I do not know, but I do know after she

22 would go into Ms. Grant's office that Ms. Grant would

23 often times come running out and start yelling at me

24 or on the other hand Ms. Grant would ignore me if I

25 asked a question and tell me "You should know that.

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1 You should know that." And that was very early on.

2 Q When Ms. Grant would come out and yell at

3 you, what was she yelling at you about?

4 A Often times it was incoherent.

5 Q Were there occasions that you did

6 understand what she was yelling about?

7 A She didn't make herself clear. She didn't

8 make herself plain.

9 Q You mentioned distributing the work.

10 As a practical matter, how did the work get

11 distributed?

12 A That was difficult because there were files

13 that had to be done. It was a situation where this

14 had to be distributed to everyone and the idea was to

15 basically distribute work for the first shift coming

16 in, and I would often times get in before 7:30 so I

17 would have the work distributed, and I would have the

18 work waiting for him or her on their desk. There was

19 carts to put the work in, so I would be able to push

20 around over the floor. But that was difficult because

21 often times there was no carts available and that was

22 also during the day, and if there was a cart available

23 it wasn't available because it was filled with files

24 that couldn't be touched because it was used for

25 something else. In a nutshell, Ms. Grant didn't

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1 provide me with a cart that would be able to

2 distribute the files or anyone else. This is an area

3 where Ms. Filbert as lead clerk was to assist me and

4 she did not. She sat at her desk and she ate

5 crackers, soda and whatever, and basically did her own

6 work or did not do her own work.

7 Q The employees to whom you had to distribute

8 work, where were they located?

9 A They were on the tenth floor.

10 Q Is that where you were, as well?

11 A Yes.

12 Q How large was the area over which the files

13 had to be distributed?

14 A As far as spacewise?

15 Q As best you can describe it.

16 A Yeah. Well, I'm not good with mathematical

17 dimensions here, but I would assume that could be

18 anywhere from, I don't know, maybe 15 feet by 30 feet.

19 It was a huge floor.

20 Q Were these files being distributed

21 continuously throughout the day or was there certain

22 shift, certain periods, during which they were

23 distributed?

24 A Continually throughout day as the work was

25 completed.

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1 Q You mentioned this intensive effort to get

2 work distributed in time for the first shift; is that

3 right?

4 A I'm sorry. Could you --

5 Q You mentioned that you would come in early

6 in order to get the work distributed; is that right?

7 A Right, the file on people's desks.

8 Q What exactly were you trying to

9 accomplished?

10 A To make sure when people came in the first

11 shift they had work to start on.

12 Q Were you coming in to make sure that each

13 and every employee had a file to work on?

14 A Files. Work with more than one, yes.

15 Q When or if an employee finished the files

16 that you put on their desk during the course of the

17 day, what would they then do?

18 A They would ask for more work, more files.

19 Q You would provide the files to them?

20 A Yes, or it also was the responsibility of

21 the lead clerk.

22 Q Would Ms. Filbert also provide files to

23 them?

24 A Usually not. Usually no.

25 Q Were there occasions that you asked

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1 Ms. Filbert to deliver files to specific clerks and

2 she refused?

3 A Yes.

4 Q How many such instances?

5 A Several. Several.

6 Q Was Ms. Filbert also responsible for

7 assisting you in distributing files to employees who

8 were coming in for the first shift in the morning?

9 A She wasn't there then.

10 Q That's because she did not start work until

11 nine A.M.?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you started at 7:30?

14 A Yes, I believe it was 7:00, 7:30.It was

15 the first shift.

16 Q On those occasions that Ms. Filbert refused

17 to help you to deliver files, what did you do?

18 A I would ask her again.

19 Q Did she continue to refuse?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Then what would you do?

22 A I would ask her again. This was a constant

23 thing.

24 Q Did you ever bring the matter to

25 Ms. Grant's attention?

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1 A Yes, I did.

2 Q When was that?

3 A When this would happen?

4 Q Yes.

5 Would it happen often?

6 A Yes, often.

7 Q What did Ms. Grant say?

8 A She would make excuses for Ms. Filbert.

9 Q What kind of excuses?

10 A Vague remarks such as, well, you have to

11 understand the way she is.

12 Q On those occasions when there was not a

13 cart available to help you distribute the files, did

14 you tell Ms. Grant?

15 A Yes, I did.

16 Q What did she say?

17 A She said "You have to do this yourself."

18 Q Over the course of the day, how many files

19 would you say that you delivered to employees?

20 A Each specific employee or overall?

21 Q Overall, altogether, the number of files.

22 MR. BRESSLER: Objection to the form. You

23 are saying what she personally delivered?

24 MR. FISHER: Yes.

25 MR. BRESSLER: Sorry.

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1 A It would vary. It would vary.

2 Q What would the most be?

3 A Overall?

4 Q Overall in a given day.

5 A It could be possibly maybe 40. No, that's

6 not right. Scratch that. It could be a hundred, 150,

7 200. It depended upon basically the type of cases

8 that were being worked on. Depends upon basically the

9 flow. It could have been more. It could have been

10 less.

11 Q On any given day, what percentage of the

12 files would you say that you actually delivered to

13 employees as opposed to Ms. Filbert?

14 A Most of the -- most, if not all.

15 Q Aside from Ms. Filbert, was there anyone

16 who was supposed to help you with the delivery of

17 these files?

18 A No.

19 Q Were there certain points when you were

20 physically incapable of delivering all of these files?

21 A I found that I really was feeling very

22 fatigued because MS is a disease where you do become

23 incredibly fatigued with physical labor. I was

24 becoming incredibly fatigued probably in December or

25 January because I was not getting the assistance from

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1 anyone, even though I had told Ms. Grant as well as

2 Ms. Stewart that I was not able to do this physical

3 labor because MS -- I mean this is not even in the job

4 description. MS is a disease where you are not

5 supposed to be doing physical labor. If I had known

6 that that position would have required physical labor,

7 I would not have taken it.

8 Q When you say that that part of the job is

9 not in the job description, what job description are

10 you referring to?

11 A I was told -- what was told to me when I

12 interviewed with Ms. Gee and Rose Chapman. The one

13 thing they asked me, "Could you pick up a piece of

14 paper from the floor?"

15 Q Why did they ask you that?

16 A None. I don't know that's. What she said,

17 "Could you pick up a piece of paper from the floor?"

18 Q Did they have any doubt that you could pick

19 up paper from the floor?

20 A That was the question that they asked me.

21 Q What was context?

22 A They were describing the responsibilities

23 of the supervisory applications clerk.

24 Q You knew, though, that the job involved

25 distribution of work to the clerical employees?

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1 A I did not know that I would have to act

2 like a warehouseman. I did not know that I would have

3 to lift heavy boxes, 50 pound boxes of files. If I

4 had known that, I would not have accepted the

5 position.

6 Q How soon during your employment with the

7 I.N.S. did you become aware that there would be these

8 physical demands for the job?

9 A I was not aware of this when I first

10 started. I became aware of it, let's see, in late

11 November and in December.

12 THE WITNESS: Could I have a little break?

13 (A short recess was taken.)

14 MR. FISHER: Could you read the last

15 question and answer back, please?

16 (The requested portion was read back.)

17 Q Did you tell anyone at I.N.S. during the

18 period of your employment there that you suffered from

19 multiple sclerosis?

20 A Yes, I did.

21 Q Who did you tell?

22 A I told Ms. Grant, I told Ms. Stewart, I

23 told the lead clerk, Dolores Filbert.

24 Q Anyone else that you can think of who you

25 told?

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1 A I may have, but I don't recall.

2 MR. BRESSLER: At I.N.S.?

3 MR. FISHER: Yes.

4 Q Do you remember when you first told

5 Ms. Grant that you had multiple sclerosis?

6 A I believe it was in November of 1995.

7 Q What exactly did you tell her?

8 A She had told me that -- that she has high

9 blood pressure. We were working overtime on a

10 Saturday. I told her that I have multiple sclerosis.

11 Q Aside from just telling her that you had

12 multiple sclerosis, did you tell her anything else

13 about your multiple sclerosis?

14 A I had always been proud of the fact that I

15 was able to work full-time having multiple sclerosis

16 and never had a problem. I was very proud of that

17 every day I was able to get up and go to work. That

18 made me feel that I was a productive citizen, a

19 productive individual. That was the point. I know

20 I'm saying this over and over. This was a point of

21 pride with me. I was beating MS, and I was able to

22 function the way everyone was functioning.

23 Q Is this all information that you told

24 Ms. Grant in that conversation?

25 A I may have. I don't remember the specific

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1 conversation, but I do remember that she told me she

2 has high blood pressure, and I told her I had multiple

3 sclerosis.

4 Q Why did she tell you that she had high

5 blood pressure?

6 A I don't know.

7 Q Why did you tell her that you had multiple

8 sclerosis?

9 A It was in conversation.

10 Q Did you tell her at that time that your MS

11 limited what you could do or how you could do it in

12 any way?

13 A At that time, it wasn't limiting me.

14 Q At that time, the work, you were already

15 responsible for delivering files?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Was your MS interfering with that aspect of

18 your work at that time?

19 A At that time, being specifically?

20 Q The time of the conversation which you said

21 was approximately November of 1995.

22 A It was starting to be a problem. I would

23 say in -- I would say late November of 1995.

24 Q In the context of this conversation with

25 Ms. Grant about multiple sclerosis, you don't remember

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1 telling her it was a problem?

2 A I had told her it was a problem that I was

3 not able to do heavy lifting.

4 Q When did you tell her that?

5 A I believe I had told her that in late

6 November, early December.

7 Q Did you tell her that was because of your

8 multiple sclerosis?

9 A Could you rephrase that? I don't quite

10 understand the question.

11 Q You told Ms. Grant in late November or

12 early December that you could not do heavy lifting.

13 Did you explain to Ms. Grant that that was

14 because you suffered from MS?

15 A I told her well enough, number one, this

16 was not in the job description, and number two, I

17 wasn't getting assistance from anyone including the

18 lead clerk, and three, the person that has multiple

19 sclerosis should not be engaging in physical work,

20 heavy physical work. When I had originally told

21 Ms. Grant that I had multiple sclerosis, it was a

22 conversation that, I believe, again was in late

23 November when we were working overtime, and she said,

24 "I have to go to the doctor. I have high blood

25 pressure." And I said, "Oh, I have multiple

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1 sclerosis."

2 Q Aside from that conversation in early

3 November, did you have any other conversation with

4 Ms. Grant that you discussed your multiple sclerosis?

5 A Yes.

6 Q When were those conversations?

7 A I don't remember specific dates or times,

8 but I did tell her that I need assistance in

9 distributing work to the clerical pool because I was

10 not able to do this alone. I was not able to lift the

11 50 pound boxes of files.

12 Q Did you explain to her the reason that you

13 could not lift the boxes of files was because of your

14 multiple sclerosis?

15 A Yes.

16 Q What did she say in response?

17 A She said, "You will have to do this

18 yourself."

19 Q How many times would you say that you told

20 Ms. Grant that you could not distribute the files?

21 A Several.

22 Q Would you say it was more than ten times?

23 A Yes. I pleaded with her. I said, "I need

24 help with this."

25 Q In each and every one of those occasions,

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1 did she tell you that you had to do this yourself?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did she ever tell you anything else?

4 A Not that I can recall. She may have.

5 Q What do you think that Ms. Grant should

6 have done, in order to assist with the job of

7 distributing files?

8 A She should have emphasized to what I told

9 her that Dolores Filbert, the lead clerk, was not

10 assisting me in any way. At that time, Ms. Grant

11 should have spoken to Dolores Filbert and had her

12 assist me since, again, Dolores Filbert was the lead

13 clerk.

14 Q Aside from directing Ms. Filbert to assist

15 with the distribution of the files, what else should

16 Ms. Grant have done to assist you in the distribution

17 of files?

18 A Maybe show a little compassion for someone

19 who needed assistance. She certainly showed

20 compassion when she would take time off to go to the

21 doctor for herself for the blood pressure. I remember

22 one staff meeting where she didn't show up, and

23 Mr. Berryman did not know where she was, and it was

24 "Where is she?" Brenda Grant had taken the day off to

25 go to the doctor.

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1 Q Who is Mr. Berryman?

2 A Mr. Berryman, I don't know what his

3 specific title was. He was further up the chain of

4 command. I assume he was there a number of years.

5 Basically, he was in a similar capacity as Edward

6 McIlroy.

7 Q The comment by Mr. Berryman was at a staff

8 meeting; is that right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Did you attend the staff meeting?

11 A Yes, I did.

12 Q Who else attended the staff meeting?

13 A Again, it was Brenda Grant, Agatha Stewart,

14 Gwynne MacPherson. There was other people whose names

15 don't come to mind at the moment.

16 Q Aside from showing you some compassion and

17 asking Ms. Filbert to assist you with the files, is

18 there anything else that Ms. Grant should have done?

19 A Maybe used a little common sense.

20 Q How should she have used her common sense

21 to assist?

22 A Basically, by saying to the lead clerk

23 "Dolores, assist Ms. Leventhal in distributing the

24 work to the clerical staff."

25 Q Given Ms. Grant's lack of responsiveness to

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1 your requests for help, did you turn to anyone else

2 for help in distributing files?

3 A Who else to turn to? This is bringing back

4 a lot of memories, so if I'm getting a little upset

5 here, I apologize. There was no one for me to turn

6 to. There was no one there.

7 Q Instead of turning to the chain of command,

8 could you have asked the clerks who you supervised to

9 assist you in distributing the files?

10 A I did.

11 Q Did you have any success in getting them to

12 assist you in distributing the files?

13 A No.

14 Q Who did you ask for help, specifically?

15 A Various people on the clerical staff.

16 Q What did these people say when you asked

17 them to help you?

18 A They would laugh and say "We have our own

19 work," or they would say "It's not my job," "It's not

20 in my job description," or they would laugh and walk

21 away.

22 Q Did you ever turn to your second-line

23 supervisor and present this problem of the

24 distribution of the files to your second-line

25 supervisor?

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1 A That was -

2 Q At that time, it was Ms. MacPherson?

3 A I think at that time it was.

4 Q Was it Ms. Stewart?

5 A I think it was Ms. Stewart.

6 Q Did you ever ask Ms. Stewart for help in

7 distributing the files?

8 A She said, "You have to do it yourself."

9 She would simply yell.

10 Q You asked clerical employees who you

11 supervised, you asked Ms. Filbert, you asked Ms. Grant

12 and you asked Ms. Stewart for help in distributing the

13 files?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Did you ask anyone else?

16 A There was no one else to ask.

17 Q When did you first tell Ms. Stewart that

18 you suffered from MS?

19 A I believe it was in -- I believe it was

20 late November, early December of 1995, though it could

21 have been earlier.

22 Q What was the substance of that

23 conversation?

24 A I don't recall offhand.

25 Q Do you recall what you told her?

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1 A I told her I have multiple sclerosis and

2 that I can't do all this heavy lifting; this is very

3 dangerous for a person who has multiple sclerosis to

4 do heavy physical labor; that I need help.

5 Q What was her response?

6 A To shout and me and say "You have to do

7 this yourself."

8 Q Do you recall when you first told

9 Ms. Filbert that you suffered from MS?

10 A Well, I told her, I believe, again, it was

11 early in my employment there. It was -- I would

12 assume it would have been in November, December of

13 1995.

14 Q What was the substance of that

15 conversation?

16 A She was very nonchalant about the whole

17 thing.

18 Q What did you tell her exactly?

19 A I said, "I have multiple sclerosis."

20 Q When you say that she was nonchalant, what

21 did she say in response?

22 A There was really no response.

23 Q Do you recall why it was that you were

24 telling her at that time that you had multiple

25 sclerosis?

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1 A Because I need help distributing files to

2 the clerical pool.

3 Q Aside from the physical task of

4 distributing files, are there any other job-related

5 responsibilities that your MS interfered with?

6 A MS can interfere with a person physically.

7 It can also cloud one's ability to understand certain

8 things. It's a very -- it's a disease that really is

9 different with each individual. With me it creates a

10 situation and often times where there was confusion,

11 mental confusion. It can anyway.

12 Q During the course of your employment with

13 the I.N.S., did your MS create a state of mental

14 confusion for you at any point?

15 A Toward the end, I believe it did because I

16 was not getting any assistance with anyone there as

17 far as the position itself was concerned, the

18 responsibilities of the position. If I may add, when

19 I would say, for example, ask Ms. Grant questions how

20 to do -- how to do a certain thing, she would say "You

21 should know that," and actually that was very early

22 on.

23 Q At what point in your employment, did you

24 begin to feel symptoms of mental confusion as a result

25 of the multiple sclerosis?

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1 A I don't know exactly when. I would say

2 maybe, possibly -- it's hard to tell exactly when

3 because often times with multiple sclerosis you don't

4 know exactly when -- you are not quite understanding

5 what's being said which is -- since it's ten to four,

6 if we can please continue this at a different time on

7 a later date, only because I feel as if I'm losing it

8 at this time.

9 Q If you feel at this point you cannot

10 testify accurately, I understand, and we can terminate

11 the deposition; is that what you are saying?

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1 A Yes. I could be more specific.

2 MR. FISHER: I would like to get copies of

3 the notes that you brought with you today.

4 THE WITNESS: Certainly.

5 (Time noted: 3:50 P.M.)

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7

CARYL B. LEVENTHAL

8

9 Subscribed and sworn to

10 before me on this day

11 of , 2000.

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NOTARY PUBLIC

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Commentary and Editor's Notes written and Copyright © by:  LTC Michael G. Leventhal

Copyright 2000  Reproduction with written permission.  Contact: Michael @Justice-Denied.net